View Full Version : A frame....
brake-dust
07-07-10, 04:42 PM
can you tow a car without a steering rack with a A frame?
General Baxter
07-07-10, 04:49 PM
no, seeing at is for recovery only lol
no, cos the wheels would flap around all over the place, with the rack in place, it would tow a load better
brake-dust
07-07-10, 05:02 PM
thought as much, been given a sierra cosworth shell but cant collect it!
you could just bolt a bit of box section between the uprights instead of a rack
thought as much, been given a sierra cosworth shell but cant collect it!
a sierra rack can't cost much
^ How's it gonna turn? lol (stt)
Definitley for recovery only. That said, I'm gonna tow from Gun city to Newcastle with one next weekend. lol
I'll book an MOT so it looks a little better. lol
BTW, what shell, Saph or 3dr? :)
^ How's it gonna turn? lol (stt)
Definitley for recovery only. That said, I'm gonna tow from Gun city to Newcastle with one next weekend. lol
I'll book an MOT so it looks a little better. lol
BTW, what shell, Saph or 3dr? :)you use lock nuts so you dont have to do it FT
I guess. Bit of a fart on though.for the sake of a Sierra rack isn't it. lol
brake-dust
07-07-10, 05:22 PM
3dr shell, needs the smallest amount of welding, guys loaded so just re-shelled lol got uprated suspension and 5 cossy alloys :d
Find a way! I'm very jealous. :)
so its a 3door sierra shell then....? with not very much of the cosworth bits...
so its a 3door sierra shell then....? with not very much of the cosworth bits...cosworth shells are different to the normal 3 door shells
and different again to xr4i shells. Pretty specific TBH. Mk1 Sierras of any spec are worth a good wedge these days.
^ How's it gonna turn? lol (stt)
have you ever used an a frame,
as long as the uprights are linked parallel - ie a bar in place of the rack it will be fine,
It relies on following the towhitch and the natural castor to restraighten the wheels,
So in answer to your question - it will turn exactly the same as it would if it had a rack!
:thumb:
cosworth shells are different to the normal 3 door shells
i might be wrong but i thought the 3 door 1.6 shells were the same as the cosworth shells, but hte rs500 shells were different again from the cosworths.
i believe the rs500 is the same body panels but different front bumper and a second spoiler on the boot, the most differences are under the bonnet.
free shell nice, scraps pretty good at the moment isnt it?
i think they also did some clever stuff with suspension pickup points.. group A had strict rules about them
Scooby_Eater
07-07-10, 09:29 PM
no, seeing at is for recovery only lol
ive towed back cars ive bought from all over the country with my A-frame,including a cat C rover :d 200 BRM from cornwall to sheffield,nova from southampton to sheffield and plenty of CAT C (medium damaged) cars from peterlee to sheff
never had any bother off the police
have you ever used an a frame,
as long as the uprights are linked parallel - ie a bar in place of the rack it will be fine,
It relies on following the towhitch and the natural castor to restraighten the wheels,
So in answer to your question - it will turn exactly the same as it would if it had a rack!
:thumb:
I'll go with that. Long day and only 4 hrs previous sleep!
I'd still fit a rack though. lol
Just because you've never had any bother doesn't mean it's legal,
also gross weight of towed car isn't allowed to be over 750 kg!
Just because you've never had any bother doesn't mean it's legal,
also gross weight of towed car isn't allowed to be over 750 kg!
not if you have a pre '97 licence....
General Baxter
08-07-10, 11:15 AM
or special like me lol
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 11:38 AM
750kg is a myth depends on weight of the towing vehicle on a new licence combined mam is allowed up to 3500kg
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
a shell wouldn't be braked so 750kg would be the limit anyway ;)
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 11:44 AM
a shell wouldn't be braked so 750kg would be the limit anyway ;)
some a frames eg the ones like the aa used to use conect to the handbrake cable so they are braked too
like this one
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Heavy-Duty-Towing-Frame-4x4-LandRover-offroad-/200492964324?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Recovery_Tools&hash=item2eae4fd9e4
I'm guessing for recovery purpose you wouldn't need the towed car to be braked.
The aa only use them to get a car to a safe place then call in the flat beds.
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 11:53 AM
aa use proper dollys now there awsome they are all hydraulic and just fold out the back of the transit awsome bit of kit
it is still only for recovery as said i was just pointing out that 750kg on a b licence is a myth as has been said on here a number of times
General Baxter
08-07-10, 12:19 PM
but if you dont have a towing license, no matter WHAT the car can take,
your limited to 750kg
my patrol could do 5ton braked, worked out it was around 7.5ton lol
no licence = 750kg trailer weight,
with correct licence, anything aslong as it dont go over the train weight of the car, and only up to 3.5ton
car = 1.5 ton, car can take a 1 ton trailer = 2.5ton, ok with license
car = 1.5 ton, 750kg with no licenc e- ok
car = 3 ton, can only take 500kg trailer, but the car its self can tow 4 ton but your not allowed, ect:
lol
and anything over 3.5 ton, you need 7.5ton license, and if towing will need a taco lol
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 12:27 PM
but if you dont have a towing license, no matter WHAT the car can take,
your limited to 750kg
my patrol could do 5ton braked, worked out it was around 7.5ton lol
no licence = 750kg trailer weight,
with correct licence, anything aslong as it dont go over the train weight of the car, and only up to 3.5ton
car = 1.5 ton, car can take a 1 ton trailer = 2.5ton, ok with license
car = 1.5 ton, 750kg with no licenc e- ok
car = 3 ton, can only take 500kg trailer, but the car its self can tow 4 ton but your not allowed, ect:
lol
and anything over 3.5 ton, you need 7.5ton license, and if towing will need a taco lol
no mate what i have put is copied from direct .gov if car is 3500kg can tow a 750kg trailer under 3500kg can tow above 750kg as long as dosent exceed unlaiden vehicle weight or 3500kg
full thing
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Whereas
the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.
General Baxter
08-07-10, 12:36 PM
i dont know lol
thats all confusing
i know im safe lol
you are actually both sort of right, so lets not fight.
BUT the direct gov info is not the whole story, because braked & unbraked trailers have different weights, and then there is the 'a car can tow a braked trailer as long as the weight of the trailer is not more than 85% of the weight of the towing vehicel, that covers caravans amongst other things
MattBrown
08-07-10, 12:37 PM
I'm guessing for recovery purpose you wouldn't need the towed car to be braked.
The aa only use them to get a car to a safe place then call in the flat beds.
We got towed 160 miles on a dolly by the AA.
No flat beds used.
You wana see the dolly, its a propper gucci piece of gear:thumb:
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 12:39 PM
my vectras kerb weight is 1357kg so i can tow a trailer up to that on a b licence as it would not exceed vehicle weight or 3500kg
1357+1357=2714kg
is that how you get stuff delivered to buyers.... take it up the road & have it 'break down' so they will tow it to the destination......
my vectras kerb weight is 1357kg so i can tow a trailer up to that on a b licence as it would not exceed vehicle weight or 3500kg
1357+1357=2714kg
no, 750kg unbraked, or 1153kg braked
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 12:40 PM
We got towed 160 miles on a dolly by the AA.
No flat beds used.
You wana see the dolly, its a propper gucci piece of gear:thumb:
thats the new dolly that folds out the back of the trany tho not the old a frames they used to have
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 12:43 PM
is that how you get stuff delivered to buyers.... take it up the road & have it 'break down' so they will tow it to the destination......
not according to there example and the 85% is guidance not law
Towing caravans
As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold.
An exemption from the driver licensing trailer limit allows a category B licence holder to tow a broken down vehicle from a position where it would otherwise cause danger or obstruction to other road users.
By passing a category B test national categories F (tractor), K (pedestrian controlled vehicle) and P (moped) continue to be added automatically.
there example as above
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
so my car is 1357 mam 1995 so can tow upto 1357 according to the above example as combined mam is under 3500
you simply have to think like this.... am i going to be towing it past or very near to a public weighbridge? and then ask is a copper going to be so bored as to make me weigh it??? 99.99999% of the time you are going to get away with stuff.... if you have a crash, then they will make an example of you.....
apart from the motorway cop (he was on the telly) in worcestershire who has a right thing about towing weights & will pull anything & everything in site....... lets just say that the A46 from stratford to tewkesbury takes more towed traffic because of him....
but even if the a frame is braked the actual brakes on the car are not type approved for a trailer so technically you are still not legal.
but an A frame does sneak under the radar as a piece of recovery equipment, as opposed to hire & reward
Welsh Dan
08-07-10, 01:03 PM
not according to there example and the 85% is guidance not law
Towing caravans
As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold.
An exemption from the driver licensing trailer limit allows a category B licence holder to tow a broken down vehicle from a position where it would otherwise cause danger or obstruction to other road users.
By passing a category B test national categories F (tractor), K (pedestrian controlled vehicle) and P (moped) continue to be added automatically.
there example as above
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
so my car is 1357 mam 1995 so can tow upto 1357 according to the above example as combined mam is under 3500
That might not be correct. Could you blank out your VIN number but post a photo of your VIN plate please?
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1441970&postcount=3
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 01:26 PM
That might not be correct. Could you blank out your VIN number but post a photo of your VIN plate please?
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1441970&postcount=3
i just looked at the weights in the hand book not looked at the vin plate only wanted sone idea and was just an example, there isnt even a bar on it yet, and i wont be towing anywere near the upper limit but will be more than 750kg
according to vin overall permisable vehicle is 1910 same as handbook now ive checked and combined weight 3410 so still fine up to the maz licence allows of 1357 due to unlaiden vehicle weight of 1357
ALL of the previous pages of info are the reason that 99.99999999999999% of the time you can get away with it, as the law just isn't clear enough. lol
I'll put it to the test again next weekend.lol
General Baxter
08-07-10, 06:01 PM
its all ****ed up
i had a van 3.2tons, with a 2 ton trailer,
because it was for work, i needed a taco lol
meh i have and will continue to tow with the estate.
actually is there a way to get a cars potential towing weight retested? as i believe the manufacturer bases it on engine power and braking power. if both of these are uprated why cant i tow something heavier
blue_peg_16v
08-07-10, 10:45 PM
its also measured against the vehicles weight
its also measured against the vehicles weight with what in it lol. normally its 740kgs but ive had it weighing over 1200 lollol
meh i have and will continue to tow with the estate.
actually is there a way to get a cars potential towing weight retested? as i believe the manufacturer bases it on engine power and braking power. if both of these are uprated why cant i tow something heavier
getting it thru some sort of commercial vehicl type approval re evaluation would cost the earth...
land rovers can legally pull a properly braked, as in air/electric 4.6t trailer, and 3.5t on rods/cables, yet a mitsubishi L200 can only legally pull 2.7t even though it is a way superior towing vehicle to the landy. this is because globally, there isn't the call for towing big stuff. britain seem sto lead the way in enormous towing weights on light commercials, cars & farm stuff.... everywhere else, they just use a lorry.
Meh, most days I tow a 36tonne trailer with an 8tonne unit :)
but fully mounted with proper running gear is a tad different to a 2" ball coupling & a pair of mini wheels holding a car in the air
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