View Full Version : FIA Kill Switch Wiring
nova ian
05-07-10, 12:48 PM
Just want to double check that this is the correct way to wire in a kill switch to a car running carbs and no engine management? I have no idea when it comes to electrics so any help appreciated :)
http://www.holden.co.uk/productimagesWD/020_011.jpg
are you running a car with radio & clock functions?
if so, then it needs wiring in with a few alterations to the loom to keep working memory.
the whole concept of competition type kill switches is to completely kill off engine function. so you could take the battery wire to the starter, & the coil wire, and any fuel pump wires & run them thru the switch thus it is also a useful immobiliser, & you keep the rest of the loom intact.
nova ian
05-07-10, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the info, yes I want the switch to kill everything. I have nothing in the car the requires power when it's off and do intend on using the car for competition in the future so want it wiring in so it would pass scrutenering test.
i've just had a look at it on the holden website, yes, it is pretty much a correct wiring diagram, because it will kill off all the main circuits. it does look like you may need the services of an auto electrician to help you sort it out in a tidy & safe manner, because it will entail altering the fuse box wiring too.
MattBrown
05-07-10, 04:24 PM
Not to "overcomplicate things"
But, whenever I have fitted/seen fitted
They always kill the neutral, as no earth = no damage etc.
this one has 4 extra points on it. it is to ensure everything gets turned off....
think crash damage, heat, fire, this switch is a proper one, not something to stop pikeys nicking a dumper
MattBrown
05-07-10, 05:20 PM
this one has 4 extra points on it. it is to ensure everything gets turned off....
think crash damage, heat, fire, this switch is a proper one, not something to stop pikeys nicking a dumper
Im sure the propper one is a remote cut off.
One one the bonnet.
The new ones are done with a remote relay, and they knock everything off when the car is parked up, £240, but worth it:cool:
mk1nova_rich
05-07-10, 05:43 PM
Im sure the propper one is a remote cut off.
One one the bonnet.
The new ones are done with a remote relay, and they knock everything off when the car is parked up, £240, but worth it:cool:
:wtf: they have one inside to be operated by driver/co-driver and one on the scuttle panel to be operated by safety marshals. They are usually linked by a cable
You should't be wiring anything else through the 4 spade connectors other than what is on the diagram. The switch is designed to not only cut off the coil feed but it also bleeds the residual current from the alternator through the resistor when you kill the switch (cheaper switches that just kill the battery will not kill the engine if you switch them off)
So long as you run the main +ve wire from the battery straight to the switch then it will cut off all other circuits anyway, once the resistor has done the job of shutting the engine down properly, and you shouldnt need to go near the fusebox eiter.
And to be fair, its a useless immobiliser as you can switch them on with a screwdriver, and the whole point of it is that its in plain view and easy to get at.
Oh yeah, and dont do what i did and wire the resistor back to front, it smokes like feck lol lol
:wtf: they have one inside to be operated by driver/co-driver and one on the scuttle panel to be operated by safety marshals. They are usually linked by a cable
I think you're thinkng of the onboard fire extinguisher.
I think you're thinkng of the onboard fire extinguisher.
Sounds like a perfect description of the cut off switch to me Lee?
Sounds like a perfect description of the cut off switch to me Lee?
There shouldnt be a engine cut off switch mounted outside the vehicle last time I flicked through the regs :confused:
Fire supresion kit is mandatory one in car, one outside (scuttle panel is usual place) cable operated as in like a bicyle brake cable operation (altho the 12v operate kits are trick as :cool: )
mk1nova_rich
05-07-10, 06:06 PM
oh yeh lol
There shouldnt be a engine cut off switch mounted outside the vehicle last time I flicked through the regs :confused:
Link (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Performance/Electrical/Battery_Isolators_&_Master_Switches/SPA_Design_T_Handle_Pull_Cable/1261/6555)
"For Extinguisher Or Battery Master Switches"
Usually marked by something like:
http://www.holden.co.uk/getImage2008.asp?path=e:\domains\holdenvc\www\prod uctimages\090_702.jpg&WorH=w&max=300
Is what I'm thinking of...
edit: Can see it in the pic below, below the windscreen, one for extinguisher one for battery cut off:
http://www.tarmac-mag.com.au/content_files/news/12338702602008-911-gt3-cup-race-car1.jpg
edit 2: Thats also what the hole in the end of the batt switches is for!
^dunno then, ill have a read of the regs now & see
Mark, he said a handle on the co driver side and a handle on the exterior linked by a cable. That is the extinguisher system.
Running a twin cut off switch requires a hell of a lot more than just one link cable and also the interior switvh is invariable in the middle where both occupants can reach it, and as mike said, isn't normally required on the exterior, but if it is used, yes, that sticker can be applied lol
Mark, he said a handle on the co driver side and a handle on the exterior linked by a cable. That is the extinguisher system.
Running a twin cut off switch requires a hell of a lot more than just one link cable and also the interior switvh is invariable in the middle where both occupants can reach it, and as mike said, isn't normally required on the exterior, but if it is used, yes, that sticker can be applied lol
He said a handle that can be used by the driver/co driver, not 2 handles... unless you mean the exterior "handle" which is T pull cord like I linked which operates the single cut off switch.
:wtf: they have one inside to be operated by driver/co-driver and one on the scuttle panel to be operated by safety marshals. They are usually linked by a cable
Mark, you suck at reading lol
unless you mean the exterior "handle" which is T pull cord like I linked which operates the single cut off switch.
THATS THE FIRE EXTINGUISHER!!!!
Mark, you suck at reading lol
You suck at understanding :p the "one" on the outside to be used by the safety marshall is a T pull cord which is attached to the end of the single master cut off switch, that's why they have a hole in them, and the "cable" is as in bike brake cable, not strands of copper
You suck at understanding :p the "one" on the outside to be used by the safety marshall is a T pull cord which is attached to the end of the single master cut off switch, that's why they have a hole in them, and the "cable" is as in bike brake cable, not strands of copper
The red T pull cord is the fire extinguisher. It is not, or ever will be, the electrical system cut off.
mk1nova_rich
05-07-10, 06:26 PM
You suck at understanding :p the "one" on the outside to be used by the safety marshall is a T pull cord which is attached to the end of the single master cut off switch, that's why they have a hole in them, and the "cable" is as in bike brake cable, not strands of copper
i knew i wasnt barking up the wrong tree!! thats correct
You suck at understanding :p the "one" on the outside to be used by the safety marshall is a T pull cord which is attached to the end of the single master cut off switch, that's why they have a hole in them.
You wouldnt have two ident T Pulls Mark, one would be for extinguishants & there would be a secondary button (NOT T Pull) for circuit isolation.
Anyway, looking through 2010's MSA generic safety regs:
External Circuit Breaker
75.
When operated, the circuit breaker must isolate all
electrical circuits with the exception of those that
operate fire extinguishers. The circuit breaker triggering
system on saloons should be located at the lower part
of the windscreen mounting, preferably on the Driver’s
side or below the rear window. On Open Cars it should
be located on the lower main hoop of the Roll-over Bar
on the Driver’s side, or at the lower part of the
windscreen mounting (as above).
76.
On cars of periods A to F, the mounting point may
also be mounted approximately vertically below the line
of the scuttle on the Driver’s side. The location must be
identified by a red spark on a white-edged blue triangle
(12cm base), and the ‘On’ and ‘Off’ positions clearly
marked.
The red T pull cord is the fire extinguisher. It is not, or ever will be, the electrical system cut off.
Then why is there an electrical cut off marking next to the extinguisher one on the porsche? Also, in the image below, hard to see I know, but see the black cable that disappears behind the handbrake? It's the other end of the T pull cord that's mounted outside the car.
http://www.freewebs.com/xworksrs/fuse%20board.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/r156/minirallycar/FireExtinguisher.jpg
Then why is there an electrical cut off marking next to the extinguisher one on the porsche? Also, in the image below, hard to see I know, but see the black cable that disappears behind the handbrake? It's the other end of the T pull cord that's mounted outside the car.
What porsche???
yep, note the 2 pull cords, one for the electrical cut and one for the fire extinguisher... also, the pic wont load as its been deleted but google has it cached, 2nd line down RHS, 2 identical pull cords, one marked with extinguisher one with electrical cut off...
http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=fia+cut+switch&um=1&hl=en&rlz=1C1AVSW_enGB381GB381&tbs=isch:1&ei=TBYyTMzwDZzBsgb5w8X3Ag&sa=N&start=80&ndsp=20
What porsche???
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1617274&postcount=14
Then why is there an electrical cut off marking next to the extinguisher one on the porsche? Also, in the image below, hard to see I know, but see the black cable that disappears behind the handbrake? It's the other end of the T pull cord that's mounted outside the car.
http://www.freewebs.com/xworksrs/fuse%20board.jpg
Because theyll be a recessed switch, trust me.
The pic above, I would say is a mech extinguisher switch. Ive seen them fitted like that (there are different types of extinguisher pull, not just T shaped ones)
This picture below, a friend of mines 2008 S1600 campaign car. Note pass side of bonnet toward scuttle panel, thay little blue sqaure. Under there is a waterproof switch for isolation, next to that but out of view to the left is a mech T pull for extinguishers)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/2349081131_c71f4b0657.jpg
yep, note the 2 pull cords, one for the electrical cut and one for the fire extinguisher
Incorrect mate, one for in car mounting (driver/codriver trigger) one for external mounting. Note x2 brass mounting nipples on the handle of the red extinguisher ;)
The pic above, I would say is a mech extinguisher switch. Ive seen them fitted like that (there are different types of extinguisher pull, not just T shaped ones)
It's an electrical master switch, can read here: http://www.xworksmotorsport.com/bmw11.htm
I do actually know what I'm saying here, they're installed in friends porsche race cars and a workmates drift car to meet FIA/MSA regs.
Is that on a proper competition car ? because IMO they should never be that close together when they're that similar mainly due to the ease of mr friendly marshall filling your not on fire car up with foam!
Is that on a proper competition car ? because IMO they should never be that close together when they're that similar mainly due to the ease of mr friendly marshall filling your not on fire car up with foam!
That's why they're marked with nice big stickers I would imagine. Also seems to be the "done thing" to have the extinguiser inboard or on the left as you look at the front of the car, and electrical on the right or outboard
It's an electrical master switch, can read here: http://www.xworksmotorsport.com/bmw11.htm
I do actually know what I'm saying here, they're installed in friends porsche race cars and a workmates drift car to meet FIA/MSA regs.
Straight of MSA website regs:
Plumbed-In Systems
58.
A list of MSA-approved plumbed-in extinguisher kits
is available on request. If AFF, these must be FIA/MSA
homologated. The Large unit should have two points of
triggering, one for the Driver (and Co-Driver in Rallies)
and one outside the car for activation by Marshals etc.
The triggering point from the exterior must be
positioned close to the Circuit Breaker (or combined
with it) and must be marked by the letter ‘E’ in red
inside a white circle of at least 10cm diameter with a
red edge.
Not disputing that fire extinguishers have 2 points of trigger, but the thing in the BMW pic, and next to the extinguisher in other 2 pics, is the outer part of the electrical cut off switch, which is a T handle, which is directly connected via a bike brake style cable to the actual electrical switch.
Not disputing that fire extinguishers have 2 points of trigger, but the thing in the BMW pic, and next to the extinguisher in other 2 pics, is the outer part of the electrical cut off switch, which is a T handle, which is directly connected via a bike brake style cable to the actual electrical switch.
I bow to you here sire, you are absolutely correct, but I have only seen this done where the cable leading to the interior switch is attached to the extinguisher handle. Otherise, i've only ever seen a button or a proper twist key externally.
i still stand by those two handles on that blue car being easily confused in the heat of the moment. ive seen the aftermath of an accidental extinguisher depoyment. it really isn't pretty and ruins everything inside the car.
if that was MY car i would change that setup asap.
Ok this should end it I hope lol Fitting and explanation of the T pull switches here: http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=20 The site doesn't support single post views unfortunately but, scroll down to the pic of the switches.
That is asking for it IMO, but if it clears the regs then it clears the regs i guess.
I certainly would never do anything remotely like that of I were in the same position.
They are a tad close together and the stickers aren't perfectly clear due to how its laid out, the porsche is a better example, but yeah they are easily confusable I guess, and maybe it's a piece of equipment that could be made far better, but that's how it's done most of the time currently, changing them has other implications in "Wheres the battery cut off, I can't see the red T handle" type heat of the moment mistakes.
nova ian
05-07-10, 06:54 PM
Wow, this threads gone mental! lol
So to get back to basics and help a wiring retard and kill switch virgin like myself, in simple terms
I go from the battery positive to one on the big terminals on the switch, then from the other big teminal to starter motor. Also from this post I bridge to terminal 1 on the same side (what size wire you recomend for this?)
Then from the second teminal one I got to the resistor and from the other side of the resistor to an earth on the chasis
Terminal 2 to the coil (which wire + or -)??
And finally senond terminal 2 to the ignition switch (again which wire do I use here, I have one of the rocker switch/push button starts)?
Hopefully the above is somewhere near right apart from not knowing which wires to take off for coil and ignition!
Cheers guys:thumb:
And don't forget your T handle on the outside lol
I wont chip in on the wiring of it, Lee is your man for that, I get confused with the normal ignition switches lol
They are a tad close together and the stickers aren't perfectly clear due to how its laid out, the porsche is a better example, but yeah they are easily confusable I guess, and maybe it's a piece of equipment that could be made far better, but that's how it's done most of the time currently, changing them has other implications in "Wheres the battery cut off, I can't see the red T handle" type heat of the moment mistakes.
The porsche isn't the best example because you cant see the method of isolation. I would imagine its not a pull cord, but either a key switch or a button.
We can agree to differ here, I stand corrected that T pull cords ARE used as electrical isolation, but I sure as hell wouldnt want one on my car thats for sure.
nova ian
05-07-10, 06:58 PM
And don't forget your T handle on the outside lol
I wont chip in on the wiring of it, Lee is your man for that, I get confused with the normal ignition switches lol
Cool, I'll await his response then :) lol
The porsche isn't the best example because you cant see the method of isolation. I would imagine its not a pull cord, but either a key switch or a button.
We can agree to differ here, I stand corrected that T pull cords ARE used as electrical isolation, but I sure as hell wouldnt want one on my car thats for sure.
Quite possibly, I couldn't say, it does look like the handle would show if it was there. If they're far enough apart and well labelled, then it should avoid any issues 99% of the time, and I know my mate that races 924's has had plenty of incidents without someone yanking the fire extinguisher by mistake. Depends how experienced the marshalls are I guess.
I'd rather have one than not if that was the option, if a marshall is there ready to pull it chances are something has already gone wrong.
I go from the battery positive to one on the big terminals on the switch, then from the other big teminal to starter motor. Also from this post I bridge to terminal 1 on the same side (what size wire you recomend for this?)
Yep, basically just stick the switch on the main +ve cable after it comes off the battery. Use some 3mm wire to bridge the +ve to terminal 1
Then from the second teminal one I got to the resistor and from the other side of the resistor to an earth on the chasis
Yep
Terminal 2 to the coil (which wire + or -)??
And finally senond terminal 2 to the ignition switch (again which wire do I use here, I have one of the rocker switch/push button starts)?
Ignore the coil side of the switch for now.
Find the wire that runs from your ignition rocker switch back to the fusebox (I would imagine you have a red wire going to one term on your rocker switch, and one or two black wires on the other, maybe even 3 if you are running the starter from that side. Remove however many there are from that side of your rocker switch, and attach them to the coil side of the kill switch. Then run a 4mm wire from the ignition side of the kill switch to the now empty terminal on your rocker switch.
Get this the right way around! if you wire the coil side to the ignition, and the ignition side to the fuse box, it will attempt to run all the power through the resistor, and will smoke like feck lol lol
Hopefully the above is somewhere near right apart from not knowing which wires to take off for coil and ignition!
Cheers guys:thumb:
Let me know if that confuses you lol
nova ian
05-07-10, 07:20 PM
Cheers Lee, your a star! :)
Need to be a bigger rep whore before I can give you anymore lol
Thanks
I better not say that I was going o use an external switch to link up to key on the cut off! but I dont have an extinguisher as of yet, but would prob swap it over when I do get one! lol
Cheers Lee, your a star! :)
Need to be a bigger rep whore before I can give you anymore lol
Thanks
I better not say that I was going o use an external switch to link up to key on the cut off! but I dont have an extinguisher as of yet, but would prob swap it over when I do get one! lol
Nah, do it if you want, just make sure its clear as day and not easy to mix up if you do get an extinguisher lol
here is mine and the pull cable is mounted out side
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp297/jonny057/1992nova018.jpg
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