1.6 T advice

[shrtwrec20]

Hi guys. I've been thinking of buying a new car as of late, but then I decided to spend the money on my unfinished nova project instead. It's a Mk 2 shell but the engine is from a GTE. I want to turbo it so I spoke to a guy from Regal today who quoted me £4000 and that didn't include a means to lower the compression :(
Anyway, I was hoping someone here could point me in the right direction because I have decided to have a go myself but don't really know where to start and what I need to consider as tbh I've not had anything to do with turbos before.
Any help will be much appreciated

Jule

[craig green]

start with the advanced search on the top bar of the forums page.

Covered a few times this year already.

[mowgli]

look at it this way...... Regal couldn't tune a radio.....

search round the forum, and you will see a lot of comments that it is way cheaper to get a 2.0 16v, xe, but if you are certain, then you need to get either machined pistons, or a spacer plate, a manifold adaptor, a decent turbo, an intercooler & some sort of management

[craig green]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Maximum-Boost-Designing-Testing-and-Installing-Turboc_W0QQitemZ270555076488QQcmdZViewItemQQptZNon _Fiction?hash=item3efe56d788

well worth a read & seriously, dont think of building something 'charged' without it.

[Dirtydog1]

£4000! holy **** only an idiot would pay that much lol

with the gte lump (e16se) you can run about 10-12 psi on the standard engine, just retard the timing slightly as to avoid knocking on boost. get a rising rate fpr and a wide band lambda so you can see your afr.

thats a cheep way, it works well if set up right and will last.

other methods include a de-comp plate or two head gaskets sandwiched together to lower the c/r

i built one a while ago, totallu stock engine as i described above running standard c/r and it lasted 6 months of abuse on 12 psi before the turbo went pop.(only paid £50 for the turbo) made 170.2 bhp and 226 ft/lb

it all boils down to how what you want from your car,

if not il buy your gte lump! :)

[Adam]

look at it this way...... Regal couldn't tune a radio.....

Id watch what you say, (Seriously) lol

[craig green]

They remap VAG's now dont they?

[Mike]

They remap VAG's now dont they?

Oh god.....

[shrtwrec20]

@ Craig thanks m8 I'll do that
@ dirtydog also thanks, just a few things I don't get. Fpr? Afr?
And as for what I'm looking for? I need reliability and aceleration. Top end not important as I live in the stix so got more winding roads than straights, which is why I don't want another xe. Didn't seem to handle as good. Also I've also wanted something with a turbo ;)

also I was going to get or make a set of low comp pistons (I work in a basic machine shop) :D

[shrtwrec20]

Had a look at this. What do you think?
Part1 http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Making-Turbo-Manifolds-Part-1/A_2604/article.html
Part 2 http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Making-Turbo-Manifolds-Part-2/A_2605/article.html

Which turbo should I be trying to get my hands on? Does it need to be from a petrol or are the ones fitted to diesels just as good?
Sorry for all the questions but I really like to get as much information before jumping into something I don't quiet understand.

I also tried giving courtney a ring today but the guy told me they haven't done one for ten years and basically had no interest in doing one again, but even ten years ago it would of cost £3000

[General Baxter]

Id watch what you say, (Seriously) lol

they will come an sue us all lol




@ dirtydog also thanks, just a few things I don't get. Fpr? Afr?

with answers like that, walk away lol

[Mike]

they will come an sue us all lol



with answers like that, walk away lol

Nick, there was a thread on Corsa C last night about supercharging a 1.8 SRi C lol you should have seen some of things said in that thread lol lol lol lol some bloke going on about get a LET/XE with an F16 or some blox like that

[General Baxter]

link me, i need a giggle lol

[Mike]

link me, i need a giggle lol

I think its got deleted as im trying to find it atm lol

[General Baxter]

did i get a named lol

[shrtwrec20]

ney sayers :lol:

[Stuart]

they key to a GOOD 1.6 turbo is the management. Stay on STD stuff and its just a piss in the wind bodge, get standalone and you are laughing

[shrtwrec20]

That makes sense Stuart. I'm in no rush to finish this. The car is currently stripped for some bodywork and a full respray and the engine is on a stand as I've just rebuilt the top end. Think I'm gonna get some low comp pistons then rebuild the bottom half

[mowgli]

the L3.1 jetronic was fitted to quite a few production turbo cars, including, i believe, some porsche stuff, and uno turbos there must be a way of playing with it......

ps, for legal reasons, i only cast doubt on regals ability to tune a radio, and at no point did i mention anything to do with their, no doubt, fine abilities with engine modification

[shrtwrec20]

Thanks mowgli. I'll look into that. I also hear a lot about megasquirt?
Unfortunatly I don't know much about car electronic wizardry. I'm much happier on the mechanical side of things :)

anyway, thanks for all the constructive comments so far guys. Keep the info coming, my head don't hurt yet lol

[mowgli]

shrtwtrec20, if you aren't into electronics, then you'd better get & learn about them, cos the only way you'll make a decent turbo conversion is with electronics

[shrtwrec20]

That's exactly why I'm asking for advice here m8. The more I can find out the better, and anything I don't get I'll pay some1 else to do ;)

[coulter]

i am also thinking of doing this with my gsi, how much would a stand alone management system cost ? also how do you program it ? and i know sick a let in it and i will have all the power i need but i am after the same thing, light wight fun. thanks this makes for some good reading.

[General Baxter]

bah supercharge 1.6 16v is all the fun you need, there that scary the man at the rolling road runs away lol

[mowgli]

you do know that they never found him, don't you???

[General Baxter]

he ran to spain, with a big net to catch the bits :p

[Sloth]

the L3.1 jetronic was fitted to quite a few production turbo cars, including, i believe, some porsche stuff, and uno turbos there must be a way of playing with it......

ps, for legal reasons, i only cast doubt on regals ability to tune a radio, and at no point did i mention anything to do with their, no doubt, fine abilities with engine modification

citroen cx turbo L3.1 has been use a few times, and volvos use L3.1 and motronic thats adjustable. im looking into this atm as i can get the lot for £20:thumb:
p.s has this kid read mikes thread in how to?

[shrtwrec20]

Hey Coulter. Have a look here. I'm thinking this is the way forward.

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/products.htm#standard

[Sloth]

www.vaux-extreme.com lads.....

[shrtwrec20]

Hey Sloth. Would appreciate a link to that thread. Can't seem to find it :s

[craig green]

Saab used Bosch Jetronic on some old 900 turbo's etc aswell.
I think an issue would lie in the actual map within the ECU.

[Sloth]

true but you can remap motoronic. and ive seen a porsche 924 turbo running 2 sets of k-jetronic, but thats a different ball game...

[craig green]

yeah I know its re-mappable, but a greater cost than a standalone setup & subsequent remapping would be the same again, unlike a tweak to Emerald's or whatever.

If this lad really want to do it proper, then he wants a donor or scrap engine, a spare turbo or 2 for mocking up, someone to create said manifold, alterations to the block, forged (not machined) low comp pistons, & hell of a lot of head scratching & problem solving getting it all in & running. If you can limit yourself to low boost (we will say below 7psi) it is workable on std management that is capable of 'overfuelling' ie something pre cat/Lambda ideally.
Drive it unsympathetically or at higher boost levels & it wont last if at all.

I had a courtenay turbo conversion on my GSi. I always wanted a 1.6T ever since I learnt of their existance. I wanted to build it myself, but after seeing one for myself realised there was a heck of a lot involved. So got mine converted. taking into account I didnt know then & what I have learnt since, I would have thought twice about the cost & socalled bodge with regard to the management etc, but it was fooking quick despite having 6psi boost and making 137bhp @ the wheels. It only had reliability issues when I started messing with it (another story).

My overall opinion is that it is totally viable to do it, however if you want to cane the car hard, look at the n/a XE conversion which is basically the same performance but wont blow up & (a good std one) will take all the abuse you can throw at it.

Check this 300bhp 1.6 on an F28 6spd.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/turbocraig/Opower%20Nova%20turbo%20finland/sor_205.jpg

A UK built one from back in the day (spankees copied from a Courtenay one)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/turbocraig/HOT%20METAL/img089.jpg

[Dirtydog1]

air to fuel ratio afr
fuel pressure regulator fpr

leaving it high comp with a turbo will give you literally no lag and is reliable providing you adjust the timing correctly and dont go mad on boost.

[Stuart]

Megasquirt will do for a 1.6 T

As mr neverdoes a projectdespiteclaimingitsallthere, you might, MIGHT, MIGHT be better off getting an ecu off an UNO/Volvo etc to play with but I doubt its going to be 'that' good as I reckon they will still be setup for low compression etc and not be able to make best use of a turbo compared to even MS.

I'd stick with enar as damn it std compresison, a lightly worked head, keep the std cam to minimise overlap, slap a bigger TB on there and fit Ms/emerald/dta/omex etc (all reprogrammable via a laptop and some software that is readily available from all suppliers). After sorting out the exhaust manifold/turbo fittings and pipework you are good to go :)

[Sloth]

I have a 1.6 laser cut exhaust flange thats never been used. Cost me 30. Make an offer. :)

[shrtwrec20]

Cool. Spoke to the boys in the fab shop today. They said they'll help with the manifold and pipework. The engine has a Kent cam in it at the moment. Will this be a problem?
Where can I get an uprated head gasket from?
What turbo should I be looking at?
Was definatly considering some low comp pistons though.

Thanks guys you been a real help

[craig green]

Kent cam is no use, swap it for a std GTE/GSi cam.
You dont need an uprated headgasket. There isnt really any for the 8v anyway iirc.
Turbo, wants to be smallish. I'd say look out for a garret from an R5 GTturbo or Fiesta turbo, I think the T25 from the 2.0 turbo Rover T16's would be usefull also.
Low comp pistons are the way to build it proper, however they will be custom & not cheap, IF you can persuade one of the piston manufacturers toi build a set, but you will need to know what CR you want as they wont really help with the development costs tbh, just make them to your spec.

[Stuart]

what cam is it (and NO 'fast road' etc isnt good enough :p )

[shrtwrec20]

Oh and I already have a power boost valve which im guessing is a fpr?

[shrtwrec20]

No idea what it is. Was in the engine when I bought it :(

[craig green]

Yeah correct, except they are pants. They dont hold the fuel pressure constant. Which is not only common knowledge but utterly true I found when setting up mine last year. One moment I had 3.5 bar, then the next time you look at the gauge its gone down to 3.1 bar, then back up to over 3.5bar. Crap.

Something I need to buy before i can run mine again.

[craig green]

what cam is it (and NO 'fast road' etc isnt good enough :p )

I did have the Courtenay/Piper one in mine & it did feel good. Oddly when I put the GM GTE cam back in it felt like it revved higher & more freely, but in comparison the Piper felt like the turbo was spooling quicker. Marginal but interesting.

[shrtwrec20]

Would the injectors from an xe be usable?
Should I use a xe fuel pump also?
Using a megasquirt I shouldn't need a powerboost valve should I?
But how would the megasquirt control the pressure?

Thanks again for all the help guys

[Stuart]

you would need a decent FPR (SARD, weber cosworth item etc), which will permit sa 3Bar of differential fuel pressure to be held (eg when you have 3bar of boost you want 6bar of fuel pressure, silly example but its easiest to understand)

The cam ideally wants to be as 'light' as possible in terms of duation etc... so I'd guess the first option in the 1.6 listing is max lol. Look on the end of the camshaft (dizzy end), there should be soemthing stamped/engraved in it

[shrtwrec20]

Ok thanks Stuart. When I get home from work I'll take a looksie

[coulter]

the ecu wont blow my budget but how much would it cost to have it programed ? and about asking a manufacture to make the pistons, i would buy some so that's 8 so far lol i can see it being very much trail and error.

[craig green]

All the answers are in thew book I linked on page 1 tbh.

[shrtwrec20]

Had a quote for the pistons from regal @ £600.
Getting the ecu sorted at a rolling road varies from place to place. I'm in the process of downloading maximum boost. Someone mention some others too but can't remember the name ATM.

[shrtwrec20]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/shrtwrec20/Nova%20stuff/IMG_0511.jpg

[coulter]

can you not machine a bit out from the top of the pistons ? or is there not enough metal ?

[craig green]

not enough metal ?

;)

[craig green]

Sayin that, maybe machine them & have them cryogenically treated, might work. But I know a guy that tried this on a Courtenay conversion & it blew twice (holes in pistons). They are too weak as only cast pistons are available in std compression.

[shrtwrec20]

It is possible but from what I've read so far, low comp pistons have a certain dished shape to their face which helps swirl the air/fuel before ignition. To get the dish right you would need to see one first and as all pistons would need to be the same they would have to be machined in a cnc lathe. You could in theory machine them under size then coat in ceramic belzona then machine to size, but I wouldn't like to try it which is why I'm gonna buy forged ones.

[Stuart]

There has got to be a small capacity jap motor that has low comp pistons available... even if it means machining the gudgeon pin mount differently or going for a slightly obscure bore size etc.

[Edd]

Courtenay used to fit Mahle pistons or machined standard ones on there conversion before they started using a head gasket spacer.

That was on the 1300 conversions they did in the early '90s tho.

[mowgli]

i machined the crown out wider on some 1200 pistons for a n/a conv. but for a turbo its too risky...

[djbrowney]

have you not though about using the 1600 16v motor and using corsa vxr pistons and rods (piss cheap aswel)

[shrtwrec20]

Right. Been gathering bits slowly. Got a turbo off a R5 GTT. Intercooler and some pipework and a rebuild kit for the turbo. Considering using a 16v engine instead if I can get 1 cheap enough. Will prob sell the gte engine then :d