Causes and solutions for torque steer

[Mieran]

Thought I'd make a thread so everyone can put their input on the list from past experience on this matter.

Causes
-Unequal length drive shafts
-Tracking out
-C20XE lol

Solutions
-Equal length drive shafts
-LSD

[nova_saloon]

dodgey camber and decent suspension having been set up right helps apparently. another solution is matching front tyres for a solution

Or having RWD would be a good solution

[Novasport]

Tyre pressures are always overlooked

[brainsnova]

less throttle helps

[novasrikev]

less throttle helps

lol lol lol

[craig green]

Mis aligned or poorly installed engine/box on its mounts will add to torque steer.

[Stuart]

dodgey camber and decent suspension having been set up right helps apparently. another solution is matching front tyres for a solution

Or having RWD would be a good solution


can/will still torque steer in rwd too ;)

[GRUNT 16V]

STOP BEING A PUSSY !!!!!!!! I NEVER HAD ANY TORQUE STEER GET SOME WIEGHTS AND GET SOME MUSCLE ON THE CHICKEN LEGS YOU CALL ARMS MO FO !!!!!!lol

[MK999]

STOP BEING A PUSSY !!!!!!!! I NEVER HAD ANY TORQUE STEER GET SOME WIEGHTS AND GET SOME MUSCLE ON THE CHICKEN LEGS YOU CALL ARMS MO FO !!!!!!lol

Try that last 1/2 of the throttle travel mid corner sometime then lol

[draper]

STOP BEING A PUSSY !!!!!!!! I NEVER HAD ANY TORQUE STEER GET SOME WIEGHTS AND GET SOME MUSCLE ON THE CHICKEN LEGS YOU CALL ARMS MO FO !!!!!!lol


this

lol

[Adam]

I dont get any torque steer on my xe :confused:
Not noticeably anyway

[SamUnited]

Solution: Sunday driving!

[nova_saloon]

can/will still torque steer in rwd too ;)

Yes this is true but it woudl be a RWD nova so who cares :D Although the short wheel base would make it whip out on corners if over throttled

[Jack]

V6 doesn't so much as torque steer as torque dive into a hedge lol

[mowgli]

torque steer is a handling trait, steer into it & keep going....

[Benn]

Worn and knackered ball joins, top mounts shocks and soft crap springs, bushes..

Never had a lot on my xe, even when just smashing the power on full.

[alan b]

man up

[Paul]

My LET is fine IMO

[alan b]

same here, mine just span up the wheels before torque steering. even now with a 90% lock diff its grand! tramlines like a mother tho

[Angus Closier]

Just hold and and get over it......if set up properly you shouldnt have much of a problem..

[Lee]

If it doesnt torque steer, its not even slightly powerful enough

[craig green]

Just hold and and get over it......if set up properly you shouldnt have much of a problem..

exactly. Everyone with twincam bigblock's saying theirs are fine (Adam, Paul, LeeH etc) probably have proper proven handling & mechanical upgrades. I wouldnt expect an XE'd Nova running Jamex -60 susspension, no seam welding, tired bushes & bad geometry to put the power down particularly well behave itself in a staright line under power.

[mrT]

exactly. Everyone with twincam bigblock's saying theirs are fine (Adam, Paul, LeeH etc) probably have proper proven handling & mechanical upgrades. I wouldnt expect an XE'd Nova running Jamex -60 susspension, no seam welding, tired bushes & bad geometry to put the power down particularly well behave itself in a staright line under power.


i,d disagree,novas have never been good at handling thats their flaw,in the dry they aint that good in when its wet you,d be aswell givin up as there terrible,to me there a very nice car and fun in a straight line,show them a slight corner and a pug 205/fiesta mk2/renault 5 etc of the will waste it every day no questions asked:cry:

[Southie]

i,d disagree,novas have never been good at handling thats their flaw,in the dry they aint that good in when its wet you,d be aswell givin up as there terrible,to me there a very nice car and fun in a straight line,show them a slight corner and a pug 205/fiesta mk2/renault 5 etc of the will waste it every day no questions asked:cry:
What a load of rubbish, you've obviously never been out in a Nova that's been setup correctly or driven properly then.

[craig green]

i,d disagree,novas have never been good at handling thats their flaw,in the dry they aint that good in when its wet you,d be aswell givin up as there terrible,to me there a very nice car and fun in a straight line,show them a slight corner and a pug 205/fiesta mk2/renault 5 etc of the will waste it every day no questions asked:cry:

Thats bull, it uttely depends on the road & the driver. Novas are pap on factory suspension, granted. :p

[Paul]

Mine does not torque steer, just point the nose straight and plant it!

[Damo]

Mine dosnt torque steer when i plant it it just spins up an fooks off in a straight line and im not running any special suspension or owt just spax coilovers standard bushes etc.:wtf:

[mowgli]

torque steer is what happens from 0-20mph, the rest of the time its just traction. putting the power down in a straight line is easy, putting it down when still cornering is a skill that very few people truly have, it is one of those annoying things, like lift off oversteer, that were mostly invented by motoring journalists to attempt to rubbish all the front wheel drive cars that were replacing the old rwd stuff, 'oh when you let off the power mid corner, the back end comes round' of course it bloody does, its physics!!!!

if you are driving alone, torque steer should be much more noticeable than when you have a front seat passenger, cos you will have about 100kg extra on the rh side (driver, controls etc), is it??? the left hand side of the road is also much worse than the rh side, so there are just too many factors on a road car... just get the tracking & camber checked & buy decent tyres (not too big) and it should be fine

[Adam]

i,d disagree,novas have never been good at handling thats their flaw,in the dry they aint that good in when its wet you,d be aswell givin up as there terrible,to me there a very nice car and fun in a straight line,show them a slight corner and a pug 205/fiesta mk2/renault 5 etc of the will waste it every day no questions asked:cry: It looks like every nova track car is sh**e and pointless then. I dont seem to remember ANY 205s, R5s etc EVER passing Dar/Lee/Olly Hewitt etc on track :thumb:
Put me right if im wrong... :)

[Damo]

It looks like every nova track car is sh**e and pointless then. I dont seem to remember ANY 205s, R5s etc EVER passing Dar/Lee/Olly Hewitt etc on track :thumb:
Put me right if im wrong... :)

Nice one ad well made point.:thumb:

[ste porter]

my let used to be a pain in the **** through the first 3 gears it pulled left right constantly at the thought of braking traction fine when it has grip but launching it was pointless any way because once you lost traction you may aswell have given up and back off because you wasnt going any where until i made a few changes

drasticly lowered tie bars caster camber and track set up properly with the aid of polly bushes and alloy top mounts to stiffen everything up and it completly transformed it. even when you launched it instead of sitting there spinning it pulled through it if you get what i mean

a well set up nova xe to 100 mph or round a track will easily be as quick as a home brew nocked to gether let using of the shelf cheap componants in my exspirence

the real interesting thing will be when im setting up the 4x4 nova
will be interesting to see what its full charactoristics will be

[Lee]

the real interesting thing will be when im setting up the 4x4 nova
will be interesting to see what its full charactoristics will be

That will be interesting, you'll be writing the rule book as far as that goes. Just do things one at a time so you get a proper understanding of what they're doing :)

[ste porter]

thats why im not skimping on geometry and why i have a 4 week wait on my gaz gold coilovers ect im fairly clued up with most aspects of geometry ect but i still have alot to learn and yet to exsperience the affects of certain changes first hand when applyed to a 4wd floor plan

[Stuart]

torque steer is what happens from 0-20mph, the rest of the time its just traction


I dunno... the Mountune Focus ST I had a play in a few times would simply bugger off where it fancied when going straight at 60 and flooring it lol

[mowgli]

I dunno... the Mountune Focus ST I had a play in a few times would simply bugger off where it fancied when going straight at 60 and flooring it lol

well that has happened in every fwd ford i've ever driven, apart from my brother's mk1 xr2 with full rs kit (he should have kept it but used the money to start his business)

[l1nuxxx]

My V6 torque steer is horrendous as it needs properly set up. My solution is to shut my eyes and hope for the best lol lol lol

[Mieran]

Shame this thread turned into an argument, I only wanted people's views.

As for the handling comment I'm also a believer that Vauxhalls can't do corners (except a couple). Olly's car had lots of money spent on it thats why it was half decent, the French hatches come out of the factory with great handling.

[Benn]

decent, the French hatches come out of the factory with great handling.


Sorry i don't agree. I've driven a 100%std R5turbo and it was like driving on jelly.

[Mieran]

Never been in a R5

Lad from uni took me for a spin in his 106 GTI and that thing never understeered no matter how hard he pushed it, another friend had a Clio mk1 valver and that was good too

[l1nuxxx]

My old 205 GTi was good but my old 2.0 Nova Saloon that was set up properly was just as good....but that cost me a fair bit to get set up to be just as good as the pug and the pug was standard!

[Stuart]

Shame this thread turned into an argument, I only wanted people's views.

As for the handling comment I'm also a believer that Vauxhalls can't do corners (except a couple). Olly's car had lots of money spent on it thats why it was half decent, the French hatches come out of the factory with great handling.


Dont need to spend a fortune to make a nova handle well enough to be a hoot.

imho the best (easiest to drive fast) handling car out of the box from vauxhall is the MK4 astra. They really got that right (mines still great even with uneven ride height at the back due to snapped springs lmao)

[Adam]

Mk4s do handle fooking mint. Theyd make a good track car as they feel so planted and well balanced.

Its just a shame that they are all slow as fook apart from the GSi's/SRi turbo's

[Stuart]

I'm sorely tempted to keep ours and just get a replacement family wagon, then track the ass off the mk4 (but would need a std let with N/A characteristics)

[Adam]

Ive lost count how many times ive said this, but a mk4 with 250-300hp would be a fooking awesome car, on road and track.

[Mieran]

Dont need to spend a fortune to make a nova handle well enough to be a hoot.

Thread is going off topic now but oh well.

So then, what would be your ideal 'big block' Nova setup? (without spending silly money obviously lol)

[Stuart]

good coilovers, sensible camber/toe settings, decent tyres and if you feel the 'need' an LSD of plate or ATB type.

Dosent need anything fancy to get it right really.
a welded chassis and cage help a lot too for handling but you can get away with it, just.

[Mieran]

I was thinking to get either GAZ or spax rsx (below 300lb) and want some rainsport 2 tyres too.

And I've read about good camber/toe/caster setups on a thread here before but I can't find it now lol

[Benn]

Mk4s do handle fooking mint. Theyd make a good track car as they feel so planted and well balanced.

Its just a shame that they are all slow as fook apart from the GSi's/SRi turbo's


Check out Flatout project on Mig dude, it should be a track tool.

[Joe Richardson]

i,d disagree,novas have never been good at handling thats their flaw,in the dry they aint that good in when its wet you,d be aswell givin up as there terrible,to me there a very nice car and fun in a straight line,show them a slight corner and a pug 205/fiesta mk2/renault 5 etc of the will waste it every day no questions asked:cry:

fpmsl lol

[Stuart]

I was thinking to get either GAZ or spax rsx (below 300lb) and want some rainsport 2 tyres too.

And I've read about good camber/toe/caster setups on a thread here before but I can't find it now lol


join the club and get a rather good price on GAZ coilovers (normal and gold) ;)

[Stan Wrecked]

Try a little left foot brake to stop wheel spin, works at Cadwell Park

A little left foot braking works for me.

Dont drive in steel toe cap boots

[therealnovaboy]

torque steer is caused by the drive shafts twisting at differant rates. this is then exagurated by over correcting it and throwing the torque to differant sides of the diff.

it can be fixed as well as other methods by having stronger drive shafts (to reduce the twist) equal length (to reduce the diffferance in twist) limmited slip diff (to reduce the torque differential across the diff) or traction control (to counteract the twist).

all these methods do not completely correct torque steer.

[mowgli]

torque steer is caused by the drive shafts twisting at differant rates. this is then exagurated by over correcting it and throwing the torque to differant sides of the diff.

it can be fixed as well as other methods by having stronger drive shafts (to reduce the twist) equal length (to reduce the diffferance in twist) limmited slip diff (to reduce the torque differential across the diff) or traction control (to counteract the twist).

all these methods do not completely correct torque steer.

please enlighten me, where the hell did you get that load of ..£%£$%£$^ from???

it is quite simply the forces acting on the steering when power is put thru the front wheels.......

[therealnovaboy]

please enlighten me, where the hell did you get that load of ..£%£$%£$^ from???

it is quite simply the forces acting on the steering when power is put thru the front wheels.......


believe it or not mowgli its a fact.

the twisting of the shaft by the torque acting on a shaft (usualy the long one) momintarily allows one wheel to turn at a differant speed than the other, causing the car to "veere" to one side.

the way you describe it doesnt explain anything at all and not really all that simple

[mowgli]

believe it or not mowgli its a fact.

the twisting of the shaft by the torque acting on a shaft (usualy the long one) momintarily allows one wheel to turn at a differant speed than the other, causing the car to "veere" to one side.

the way you describe it doesnt explain anything at all and not really all that simple

i am utterly astounded that a driveshaft transmitting as little as 25hp (my old 1200carb) could cause torque steer by twisting the shafts on 145r13 tyres, but the 1.0 shafts i'm running on my e16se do not appear to be twisting at all with double the horsepower going thru them on 185/55r15's because my car really doesn't torque steer....

if my driveshafts could twist, i'd never dare to drive the car....... it will break traction long before any shaft twist is noticeable.......

as I said... its down to the handling characteristics of the car & simply how the power transmits thru the steering to the wheels. on a uk road, they will normally tend to torque steer to the left cos the lefthand side of the road is crap & there is a camber on the road, but if the left wheel suddenly finds grip, it could slide to the right......

I am curious though as to where you got the info on twisting shafts

[therealnovaboy]

mowgli there are other factors that can cause torqu steer like angle of drive shafts, construstion of the tyre wall, suspension configuration etc.

i was told this by my brother who knows about this sort of stuff.

i still dont understand your explination. its not "just a charactoristic of the steering" the torque is transmitted through the shaft and twists regardless of the point at which the tyre breaks grip with the road. its the inertia of the drive shaft as the torque is exerted on it. it only has to twist a tiny amount.

im sure there will be info on wiki or the likes.

[Lee]

believe it or not mowgli its a fact.

the twisting of the shaft by the torque acting on a shaft (usualy the long one) momintarily allows one wheel to turn at a differant speed than the other, causing the car to "veere" to one side.



Torque steer is not caused by driveshaft twist i'm afraid. Even if the shafts could twist enough to cause that much of a difference in wheel speed, the differential would compensate. That is, after all, what a differential is for.

A cause CAN be unequal shaft lengths because the angle of the long shaft is shallower than the shorter shaft. When CV joints have a turning force applied to them, they try to straighten out, therefore the tighter the angle on the CV, the stronger the aligning force and this can be felt in the steering, ie torque steer.

Thats why an equal length shaft setup works, because it makes both the inner and outer CV angles the same on both sides. If your theory was correct, an equal length setup wouldnt work, as essentially the shafts are still different lengths in regards to distance from diff (obviously slightly shorter due to a secondary CV splitting it in half) to hub therefore the longer shaft would still 'twist' more than the shorter one.

Mowgli, I assume your 1600 was lowered and your 1.0 was still on stilts. That would account for why the 1.0 torque steered more than the 1600.

Obviously there are other reasons for torque steer, but im afraid twisting shafts is not one of them. Dont believe everything you read on the web lol

[MK999]

Driveshafts twist I'm afraid, boats with 6 inch thick hulls bend, and an RSJ deflects in a measurable manner when you stand on it, it's a fact of life lol Another major factor is the transmission of power through the CV's, larger the angle the more power is turned into heat and friction in the CV, which is the actual reason for equal length, as theres still the same amount of shaft to twist.

[mowgli]

mowgli there are other factors that can cause torqu steer like angle of drive shafts, construstion of the tyre wall, suspension configuration etc.

i was told this by my brother who knows about this sort of stuff.

i still dont understand your explination. its not "just a charactoristic of the steering" the torque is transmitted through the shaft and twists regardless of the point at which the tyre breaks grip with the road. its the inertia of the drive shaft as the torque is exerted on it. it only has to twist a tiny amount.

im sure there will be info on wiki or the likes.

yes, and it doesn't mention driveshafts apart from unequal lengths......

now, about steering...

on a fwd car, it is there to do 2 things:

1. turn the car

2. actually transmit the power from the diff to the wheels....

my reasoning in this is that the hub, outer cv, suspension, brakes are actually all part of the steering. you might argue this point, but basically, it is all there to turn the car & put the power onto the road.

if the steering wheels are not in the right place, they will not put the power down properly. all the other moving parts listed above are there purely to make sure the front wheels are in the right place to put the power down.
now steering being out of alignment, castor, camber is far more likely to contribute to torque steer...

any steering is basically a huge compromise between grip & comfort for the user, you could engineer a car so it is the most amazing steerer on the planet, but the uninterested masses will not buy it cos it will be bumpy, the steering wheel will kick back, and be heavy to use at low speeds, thus they make it lighter, easier, with less kickback, and this is done by geometry & the use of rubber bushes, & softer springing/damping. thus the steering is the biggest single contributor to torque steer.

but as I say, my 9000miler fitted with an e16se, 185/55r15 tyres and spax springs does not really torque steer to any degree when I welly it.

[Lee]

Driveshafts twist I'm afraid, boats with 6 inch thick hulls bend, and an RSJ deflects in a measurable manner when you stand on it, it's a fact of life lol Another major factor is the transmission of power through the CV's, larger the angle the more power is turned into heat and friction in the CV, which is the actual reason for equal length, as theres still the same amount of shaft to twist.

I never said driveshafts dont twist, I said twist was not a cause of torque steer. ;)

[MK999]

I never said driveshafts dont twist, I said twist was not a cause of torque steer. ;)

And you posted before I replied to mowgli, not my fault you're in the way lol

[mowgli]

i have been messing around with high power driveshafts for decades on heavy plant & vehicle applications, if they were twisting by more than an infinitessimal amount, they'd shear. driveshafts are made from serious metal, & on a nova, they are plenty strong enough for reasonable power outputs, ie: 100hp per shaft, the cv joints are usually the weak link, and they would 'twist' far more

[Lee]

i have been messing around with high power driveshafts for decades on heavy plant & vehicle applications, if they were twisting by more than an infinitessimal amount, they'd shear. driveshafts are made from serious metal, & on a nova, they are plenty strong enough for reasonable power outputs, ie: 100hp per shaft, the cv joints are usually the weak link, and they would 'twist' far more

Persactly, it may twist, but by a fraction of a mm. For a shaft to actually make one wheel spin faster then the other it would have to twist by at least an 8th of a rotation. No way would it do that, unless you had inadvertantly fitted a torsion bar instead of a driveshaft.

But if you had done that you woud notice as the driveshaft you had wedged into your rear beam would render the suspension inoperable.

[therealnovaboy]

i took it to be that with an uneven length of drive shaft, engine power is transferred to the wheel with the shorter driveshaft a fraction of a second before it reaches the opposite wheel due to one shaft twisting more than the other. This first wheel gains traction and pulls the vehicle toward that direction before the other wheel can gain enough traction to compensate.

that is how a lsd reduces torque steer? no?

[Lee]

i took it to be that with an uneven length of drive shaft, engine power is transferred to the wheel with the shorter driveshaft a fraction of a second before it reaches the opposite wheel due to one shaft twisting more than the other. This first wheel gains traction and pulls the vehicle toward that direction before the other wheel can gain enough traction to compensate.

that is how a lsd reduces torque steer? no?
No, its the aligning force of the CV's acting on the shorter shaft more than the longer, pulling the STEERING over to that side. Its got nothing to do with a faster wheel. Test your own theory. Take a car that badly torque steers onto a wet road. it will torque steer just as much as on a dry road, therefore it cant be a faster wheel as the grip levels are a lot lower and it would just spin.

An LSD doesn't reduce torque steer, in fact, a lot of the time it compounds it, especially on uneven road surfaces. Ever driven a Focus RS? It may as well have 'hedge' permanently entered in the Sat nav.

[therealnovaboy]

yes lee i know where you are coming from but if you had both unequal length drive shafts horizontal with the road would it still torque steer?

i know this is a factor and why i mentioned it. i will admit i never really understood it fully untill now.

i still cant rule out the twist of the shaft because its made sence to me that that is the cause for so long.

edit:
sureley that is the whole point of a constant velocity joint ie, ensuring that the wheel remains a constant speed regardless of the angle so both wheels remain the same speed and therefore goes in a straight line. Or do you mean the wheel actualy turns as an effect of the torque steer.

[mowgli]

yes lee i know where you are coming from but if you had both unequal length drive shafts horizontal with the road would it still torque steer?

i know this is a factor and why i mentioned it. i will admit i never really understood it fully untill now.

i still cant rule out the twist of the shaft because its made sence to me that that is the cause for so long.

edit:
sureley that is the whole point of a constant velocity joint ie, ensuring that the wheel remains a constant speed regardless of the angle so both wheels remain the same speed and therefore goes in a straight line. Or do you mean the wheel actualy turns as an effect of the torque steer.

the cv joint is simply a name as opposed to a hardy spicer universal joint, which actually start to seize up the more steering angle you put on them.....

in my opinion, the whole twisting shaft thing is a red herring because once drive has been taken up, the shaft simply can't twist any more and thus the twist, which is negligable, is negated. also a wheel doing 30mph is doing about 8 revolutions per second, and the amount of twist compared to that is truly not worth thinking about.

as I have already said, and I stand by it, torque steer is a characteristic of the steering coping with the power

[Lee]

yes lee i know where you are coming from but if you had both unequal length drive shafts horizontal with the road would it still torque steer?

i know this is a factor and why i mentioned it. i will admit i never really understood it fully untill now.

i still cant rule out the twist of the shaft because its made sence to me that that is the cause for so long.

edit:
sureley that is the whole point of a constant velocity joint ie, ensuring that the wheel remains a constant speed regardless of the angle so both wheels remain the same speed and therefore goes in a straight line. Or do you mean the wheel actualy turns as an effect of the torque steer.
Nail on head pretty much. Going back to Mowgli stating his underpowered 1.0 torque steered more than his 1.6, he then later mentioned it was on spax springs so it was lower, ergo the shafts were at less of an angle, ergo, less torque steer. Trouble is, the closer to horizontal you make the shafts, more problems raise their ugly head such as bump steer because the rest of the suspension components start running at steeper angles such as the track rods.

Yes, the point of a CV joint is to transmit a rotational force 'around a corner' but the torque steer is caused by a dragging effect which is increased the more you turn the CV away from center (aligning force) which pulls on the steering. The Rotational force doesn't change.

As mentioned on the thread, this is exacerbated by worn bushes and softer suspension as there is less resistance to this force so the aligning force can move the TCA and or track rod and /or strut top more which changes the geometry more, ergo makes the car steer off course more.

As a good example, my trackcar didn't have equal length driveshafts, but I ran nylon bushes and solid topmounts, and despite running 200bhp it didn't torque steer even slightly. And for a time I was running that power through standard 22 spline shafts.

[Paul]

i twisted the splines slightly on a motorsport shaft and struggled to get a CV off.

[mowgli]

i twisted the splines slightly on a motorsport shaft and struggled to get a CV off.

the splines are the weak point on any driveshaft. when I worked with tractors, they could easily strip the splines completely off the shafts

[Paul]

i have no idea what causes torque steer, and to be honest dont really care, cause my car goes where I point the nose. But correct me if im wrong, are the splines not part of the driveshaft?

I know twisted splines dont cause torque steer, but people have been saying its not possible to twist a shaft that much, well i did.

[mowgli]

paul, 'motorsport' shafts are made in some machining shop somewhere in the north of england as a pattern part. yes, they may get heat treated, but they are usually only fitted if the factory ones knacker up, usually due to enormous power & rough useage. the splines are the weak point simply because the splined end is only as strong as the weakest spline. the point he was making was that the shafts twist, like a piece of rubber when the power is put on them & this causes torque steer. yours deformed under severe use

[therealnovaboy]

hmm, interesting.

so what you are saying is that the cv joint moves to align with the shaft. so it would have the same effect as moving the wheel towards a positve camber which in turn creates a force on the rack,or any other play in the steering/suspension, in turn, steering the car. lee please correct me if i still dont understand.

mowgli im not saying torque steer isnt a characteristic of the steering coping with the power im just saying its not an explanation, its like saying bump steer is a characteristic of steering coping with bumps.

[Paul]

paul, 'motorsport' shafts are made in some machining shop somewhere in the north of england as a pattern part. yes, they may get heat treated, but they are usually only fitted if the factory ones knacker up, usually due to enormous power & rough useage. the splines are the weak point simply because the splined end is only as strong as the weakest spline. the point he was making was that the shafts twist, like a piece of rubber when the power is put on them & this causes torque steer. yours deformed under severe use

I only said motorsport so you knew what shafts I had, I appreciate that they are made in the same way as a pattern part is.

As i say I have over 330lb/ft torque and mine doesnt torque steer, granted it lights the wheels up in pretty much every gear, so therefore it must be down to setup!

[Lee]

I know twisted splines dont cause torque steer, but people have been saying its not possible to twist a shaft that much, well i did.

paul, the aguement is that driveshafts cause torquesteer by twisting, and then resetting, like a torsion bar, which they do not.

It is however entirely possible to twist a shaft, but it aint springing back to where it started afterwards lol

[Paul]

paul, the aguement is that driveshafts cause torquesteer by twisting, and then resetting, like a torsion bar, which they do not.

It is however entirely possible to twist a shaft, but it aint springing back to where it started afterwards lol

Well if it twisted that much it would just snap, metal fatigue and all that, im sure we've all fatigued a bit of metal off once the cutting disc run out!

Be exactly the same as that.

[therealnovaboy]

you would be surprised how much you can /twist a bit of metal a piece of metal. when you tighten a bolt to say 180 lbft of torque you can feel it stretch when there isnt even mm between the head of the bolt and the end of the thread imagine what its like on a drive shaft say 2.5 ft long with 300 lbft of torque.

[Lee]

hmm, interesting.

so what you are saying is that the cv joint moves to align with the shaft. so it would have the same effect as moving the wheel towards a positve camber which in turn creates a force on the rack,or any other play in the steering/suspension, in turn, steering the car. lee please correct me if i still dont understand.

By christ, I think he's got it lol


mowgli im not saying torque steer isnt a characteristic of the steering coping with the power im just saying its not an explanation, its like saying bump steer is a characteristic of steering coping with bumps.

Basically that is what it is though. Its forces acting upon the steering. So the amount of these effects you feel through the steering depends on how well the geometry has been set up to deal with said forces.

[Lee]

Well if it twisted that much it would just snap, metal fatigue and all that, im sure we've all fatigued a bit of metal off once the cutting disc run out!

Be exactly the same as that.
Exactly. You said you twisted a shaft and the CV was difficult to get off. SO, the driveshaft twisted, but didnt spring back to where it was.

Take a piece of mild steel rod and then try to twist it. It will twist a bit, and then spring back again and not lose any integrity, thats how torsion bars work in french POS like 205's lol

Take a piece of hardened steel and do the same thing. it wont twist (not an amount you will be able to measure) and then when it does, it'll either twist and stick in its new position considerably weaker than it was before, or shear completely.

[mowgli]

you would be surprised how much you can /twist a bit of metal a piece of metal. when you tighten a bolt to say 180 lbft of torque you can feel it stretch when there isnt even mm between the head of the bolt and the end of the thread imagine what its like on a drive shaft say 2.5 ft long with 300 lbft of torque.

i torque up hgv wheelnuts to in excess of 650lbft & they don't stretch noticeably, the studs are 22mm. i once had 20' of scaffold on a wheelbrace to undo a sticking nut, and had 15 stone bouncing on it, so thats maybe 3000+lbft and the stud was still ok

[therealnovaboy]

15 stone bouncing on it,

pull the other one mowgli

[mowgli]

pull the other one mowgli

i'm sure you've never met me..... but i can assure you i weigh 15 stone.

infact i got the math a bit wrong, it was nearer 4200 lbft.



we would still love to know where this twisting shaft bollocks comes from though, because as a test, i'm prepared to stick some masking tape on my driveshafts to see if any of it moves during hard acceleration, just to prove what a load of cobblers it is

[alan b]

i once had 20' of scaffold on a wheelbrace to undo a sticking nut, and had 15 stone bouncing on it, so thats maybe 3000+lbft and the stud was still ok
strong wheel brace

[MK999]

It is however entirely possible to twist a shaft, but it aint springing back to where it started afterwards lol

http://www.feppd.org/ICB-Dent/campus/biomechanics_in_dentistry/ldv_data/img/mech/mech_92.jpg

That's a typical stress strain curve for a steel, that first section up to A is the elastic deformation region which the materials tensile modulus is calculated off of, during that any deformation is completely reversed when the stress is taken off, pauls version is anywhere after that... so in a sentence, driveshafts do twist, and they do spring back :p

[mowgli]

volvo truck wheelbraces are really strong.

[alan b]

torque is caused by the longer shaft twisting end off, its been proved before, we did it in college for motorsport engineering. we even did tests. bending a shaft is totally different to twisting a shaft, as the bending force is concentrated on one area. whereas a twisting force is applied across the entire length of the shaft. there is a point at which if you twist past, it will permenently deform, and just past this point it will snap. usually on the weakest part of the shaft. there will always be areas slightly less dense that will be weaker. 9 times out of 10 the amount the shaft twists is not noticable, but if you look at the cirumference of the shafts which is directly driving the wheel the amount of movement difference in the wheel speed is greater than that of the shaft because of the circumference difference. tyres will usually loose grip before the twist gets so great that the shaft snaps.

[mowgli]

http://www.feppd.org/ICB-Dent/campus/biomechanics_in_dentistry/ldv_data/img/mech/mech_92.jpg

That's a typical stress strain curve for a steel, that first section up to A is the elastic deformation region which the materials tensile modulus is calculated off of, during that any deformation is completely reversed when the stress is taken off, pauls version is anywhere after that... so in a sentence, driveshafts do twist, and they do spring back :p

you and your big science.......

the argument is that the amount of twist on a driveshaft is so small that it is almost unmeasureable & the tyres are actually the weak point in the drivetrain. the lad was trying to explain torquesteer as the driveshafts twisting like a torsion spring, and then at some point releasing it....which is bollocks of course.

pauls cv joint probably distorted first causing the splines to twist.

its play & backlash that knackers a drivetrain

[alan b]

yes but if a driveshaft twists 1/10 of its circumference, that 1/10 when driving the wheel, does make the difference.

[MattBrown]

yes but if a driveshaft twists 1/10 of its circumference, that 1/10 when driving the wheel, does make the difference.

1/10th?

To me its caused by an unbalanced car, hence why cars get knife edge balanced for motorsport?

I.e, gearbox side is lighter, so there is less downward force on this wheel, so the car pulls this way:confused:

[GRUNT 16V]

Who Gives A 5hit !!!!!!!! Just Drive The Fooking Thing !!!!!!

[mowgli]

yes but if a driveshaft twists 1/10 of its circumference, that 1/10 when driving the wheel, does make the difference.

the problem is that the exact moment that a driveshaft takes up drive & twists, that is it, it is hidden by the initial chirp of wheelspin. the tyre then starts spinning at several revs per second & the initial couple of degrees of twist is no longer a problem

torque steer lasts a lot longer than a few microseconds, it is a characteristic of the steering setup, which includes the suspension.

[MK999]

I lost my reply when I closed the window but I just did a quick calculation based on 15 degrees of shaft twist which is a half decent guesstimate at where it would start yielding on a steel shaft and using a 195/50/15 R888 you'd go 'off course' by roughly a degree from shafts twisting. No it's not huge, yes it is a factor :p

[mowgli]

yes, but once twisted, they remain twisted until you change gear then twist again, by a lesser amount and so on to top gear.

one degree off course is nothing, there are cars that go off by way more than that (mk3 escort etc) so the shaft would have to look like a spring to account for that
its still got way more to do with suspension & steering component design & materials

[MK999]

I like the edit, I preferred the previous reply "yes it's a factor but it's tiny" which is exactly what I said lol There's loads of factors that contribute to 'torque steer' or the feeling that the car is not going in the direction it's pointing, and driveshafts twisting, which they do, is one of them.

[Stuart]

so then, we need numbers for how much force is required to twist a plain steel shaft that is 25mm in diameter by one degree...... Then we can assertain if the wheels would slip before the actual twisting happened.

[Stuart]

right then
http://www.freestudy.co.uk/c103/t3.pdf

I assumed a shaft diameter of 25mm, and the modulus of ridgidity for cold rolled steel to be 75Pa, and the shaft was 0.5M long

to get a 1degree twist in it (so thats a 1/360th of a turn) it takes 100Nm or force... bear in mind thats going to be differential force so the tyre MUST be able to resist 100NM of torque placed on it from stationary (or to add 100NM of torque in an instant while moving)

so in reality its going to be facking hard to twist a shaft within its elastic limits on all but total slicks, on a hot day on perfect tarmac etc etc etc

[Stuart]

oh and to go on from there,
might have got this bit wrong so feel free to correct.

Assume a nova weighs 900KG and in the super imaginary worls its 50/50 balanced FR/LR so tis 225Kg on each corner.
You have amazing slicks on that have a mu of 0.9

Thats approx 200N of launch grip you have to play with

Going with a 195/45/15 tyre size and the 25mm shaft, putting 100NM down it will give you about 380NM at the point of contact for the tyre.

working backwards that means you can 'only' put about 50NM down the shaft to not break that static friction at launch... which relates to a 0.5degree twist in the shaft. Which lets face it, is nothing.

That could all be a load of toss though lol


note that in 1st gear you are most likely putting thousands of NM of torque due to the gearbox mutiplying the forces

[Lee]

I like the edit, I preferred the previous reply "yes it's a factor but it's tiny" which is exactly what I said lol There's loads of factors that contribute to 'torque steer' or the feeling that the car is not going in the direction it's pointing, and driveshafts twisting, which they do, is one of them.

If the shafts twisting a micro mm is one of the causes, its probably less than 1% of the reason, but i'm not buying even that 1%.

There's no point argueing about it on the interwebs though lol. People can believe what they want, it doesnt really matter if ts right or not, it only matters that you're confident in your beliefs :d

[mowgli]

the thing about motorsport engineering is that all good racing cars are set up with huge camber, toe out & a fair bit of castor so the car won't run too well in a straight line, but it corners like hell, so it naturally torue steers on the straight.
rally cars are set up with a smaller camber & toe, but are basically set up in the same way.

[General Baxter]

wtf, nerd alert lol

[therealnovaboy]

i was thinking about this again today. i still stand by the twisting of the shaft theory as a contributing factor to torque steer.

i remembered that some nova drive shafts have weights half way along the long drive shaft. i may be wrong but i always thought that these were to try and help reduce torque steer.

i dont know how they are supposed to work but i cant see them having any affect on the forces of the cv trying to straighhten and move. however altho imno mechanical engineer i can see them having more effecton reducing twist in the shaft and. i dont know just a thought.

i also remember reading somewere that a car was made with a hollow shaft and a solid shaft to try to counteract this twisting to reduce the torque steer. again im no expert and could be wrong

[Lee]

i remembered that some nova drive shafts have weights half way along the long drive shaft. i may be wrong but i always thought that these were to try and help reduce torque steer.

i dont know how they are supposed to work but i cant see them having any affect on the forces of the cv trying to straighhten and move. however altho imno mechanical engineer i can see them having more effecton reducing twist in the shaft and. i dont know just a thought.



Thats a balancing weight to reduce vibration ;)

[MK999]

oh and to go on from there,
might have got this bit wrong so feel free to correct.

Assume a nova weighs 900KG and in the super imaginary worls its 50/50 balanced FR/LR so tis 225Kg on each corner.
You have amazing slicks on that have a mu of 0.9

Thats approx 200N of launch grip you have to play with

Going with a 195/45/15 tyre size and the 25mm shaft, putting 100NM down it will give you about 380NM at the point of contact for the tyre.

working backwards that means you can 'only' put about 50NM down the shaft to not break that static friction at launch... which relates to a 0.5degree twist in the shaft. Which lets face it, is nothing.

That could all be a load of toss though lol


note that in 1st gear you are most likely putting thousands of NM of torque due to the gearbox mutiplying the forces

Slicks have a mu much higher than 1, proper racing slicks go as high as 3. But yes, it's tiny lol

[therealnovaboy]

thats right its to stop harmonics or somthing.

its got nothing to do with the tyres grip. if you have a long bar with a wheel on the end,in mid air, the bar will twist just with the inertia of trying to rotate a mass. if you imagine a really long bar its easier to imagine.

the twist only has to be a tiny amount more than the short shaft. then the diff takes over and pull the car to the side. like hitting a slidy patch on the road with one wheel, the car pulls to the side that the slidy patch is on.

i was talking to my old man who is an engineer in the deep sea oil and gas industry and knows about metal stresses and strains. he explained that metal can twist then spring back untill it passes its yeild point. this point changes as the length of the bar increases.

[mowgli]

wtf, nerd alert lol


i know....just snatch at the wheel & keep your right foot down

[Mieran]

I thought I'd update this thread instead of making a new one.

Turned out to be the passenger side wheel bearing, it was knackered.

The car went from having dangerous torque steer to hardly any.

[Dar]

Good to hear. It's usually something moving under load.

[craig green]

Nice one. I bet along the way to sorting it, you rectified other issues you didnt know you had.