Triangulating rollcage to front turrets

[Iain]

Pondering about doing this to my car before it's painted. I currently have a Safety Devices 6pt rollcage (bolt-in type) welded to the floor, so it's not going anywhere.

Is the competition car build manual the best way of doing this? Just bolt it from the front hoop to the gap between the turret and a bolted in piece between the horizontal and the horizontal mount:

http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/BuildManualRollcage.JPG

If I were to do this, I guess I could use 'saddle' clamps like these (defo for the top, not sure about the bottom as it would be at an angle?!):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Roll-Cage-Saddle-weld-on-bolted-clamp-38-1mm-11-2-tube_W0QQitemZ150387486222QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Ca rsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2303caee0e

Or would I be better just profiling the ends and welding them to the front hoop? Or welding them to the turret? The only problem I can see with welding to the turret is that you wouldn't be able to get round the back of it to weld up. I guess you'd need to weld around where it comes out of the bulkhead so there's no real need to just bolt it in.

To complicate things further I guess care would need to be taken to avoid the bonnet hinges.

[Mike]

Ive always profiled the ends of the forward triangulation an welded them to the front cage legs, then tagged & welded them into the turrets, but thats on 106/205/C2's.

But saying that, theres enough room on a Nova to weld or tag them onto the sides of turrets so to speak.

Burgo has some good pics of this from his light blue loon :thumb:

EDIT: Good point on the bonnet hinges chap, if memory serves me right theyll be right in the way wont they?

[Novasport]

Welded triangulation just visible on my friends rally car...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF1581.jpg

Its for sale BTW ;)

[Iain]

Yeah I was looking at Burgo's pics from the thead [url=http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136936&highlight=triangulation[/url] and seems to miss the hinges, depending on your front loop position I guess:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/sclurgess/nova16.jpg

Will F looks to have copied the build manual, which I quite like the way it's done, bolting it to the gap next to the turret: & also missing the hinges

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Nova-crew/Billing%2009/DSCF0515.jpg

[Iain]

Cheers NovaSport, I found that while searching for pics too! The issue I thought of with doing that is it'll be very difficult to weld the diagonal piece to the horizontal as you won't be able to get the torch behind very easily?

There's also CPs where he seems to have welded the horizontal to behind the turret, but not sure where the diagonal goes as I can't see it come in to the bay!

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb125/cpnova/novapaintedinside002.jpg

Another robbed pic, Count Vaux Alot's rollcage before he started on it shows what I'm thinking of for the horizontal bars:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/cage009-1.jpg

[Will F]

Its a good idea if you aregoing to give it a proper hammering!

Roll Centre did mine, but the hardest part is getting it all sealed up and looking decent where the cage enters the car! lol

[burgo]

i would say your crazy not to do it now to be honest.

[Connor]

^^^ +1

[Paul]

What did i tell you lionel, no reason not to!

[Iain]

Yep, I'm just thinking of the best way to do it. I think a horizontal coming to the turret gap like Will's, then some triangles welded to that and the turret for a diagonal to bolt to.

But should the diagonal go down to where the door bar meets the front leg, or where the front leg meets the floor?

Will that wouldn't be a problem regarding neatness as I'd just weld it to the bulkhead where it comes out.

[MK999]

Where the door bar meets would be plenty strong enough I imagine. In fact 2 cage bars vs a cage bar and nova floor, it's probably stiffer at the door bar lol

[burgo]

if i was doing it i would do it to where it meets the floor

[Paul]

if i was doing it i would do it to where it meets the floor

Why?

[burgo]

just seems a stronger anchorage point to me

[Paul]

Fair enough, this is how I'm going to do mine:

This bar welded in first, on the turret i will weld a 3mm thick plate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/lashednova/turret3.jpg

Birds Eye View:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/lashednova/turret2.jpg

I will not be welding it alongside the turret, as I can see no benfeit in that. I know the Grp A cars were done like that, and whoever wrote/desgined it knows more than me, but no-one can explain why alongside and not at the back?

Second horzontal bar:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/lashednova/turret.jpg

This will be joined as close to the turret as possible.

[burgo]

purhaps it goes along the side as it would get in the way of the hinge if it goes to the back. but im sure your bonnet is on pins isnt it anyway???

[Paul]

purhaps it goes along the side as it would get in the way of the hinge if it goes to the back. but im sure your bonnet is on pins isnt it anyway???

Yeh mine is, so mine will be ok to go there, maybe thats the reason i never though tof that lol

[burgo]

it does make more sence for it to go to the back as far as strength is concerned its just not practical for some

[Paul]

yeh thats exactly what i thought :)

[Iain]

Surely if the turret is going to flex, the part next to it is going to flex too. So bolting+welding it next to the turret is ok as long as the diagonal bar keeps it from moving about.

[burgo]

yes its "ok"

[Iain]

Ok been playing with some rulers and think Paul's idea looks simpler! Will miss the bonnet hinges and you can use straight pieces of tube without trying to bend it around to meet the turret properly.

http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/CageTriangulation1.JPG

So can do as Paul is planning, 3mm plate and weld a horizontal to that + a profiled end to the front hoop.

Then for the diagonal, the foot does actually look better as there won't be much gap between the 2 bars with the height of my doorbar:

http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/CageTriangulation2.JPG

Shame I've got a crappy dash dodger SD cage, would be much neater with one that hugs the A pillars properly!

[burgo]

ahhh i took my bars out higher, i went through the hole that is already there which is why it would have got in the way of the hinge. if you think it wont going lower then all good :D

[Iain]

Can't be 100% sure but one way to find out lol That red mark would be the hole for the next-to-turret idea, but it'd be similar height for the pictured way I think.

[The Simps]

Interesting reading so far :thumb:

[Count Vaux Alot]

You may have already seen mine, if not here they are:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/frontturretsandcagemounts033.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/frontturretsandcagemounts038.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/frontturretsandcagemounts019.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/frontturretsandcagemounts020.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/frontturretsandcagemounts021.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/frontturretsandcagemounts037.jpg

I will say however i only mounted mine in this way as to suit the cages construction, if i had started from scratch i would have gone for a side mounting for ease if nothing else.

[MK999]

I will not be welding it alongside the turret, as I can see no benfeit in that. I know the Grp A cars were done like that, and whoever wrote/desgined it knows more than me, but no-one can explain why alongside and not at the back?

Any forces on the top of the turret will be while cornering, acceleration and braking has little effect on the top of the turret (The reason why is slightly more complex than this next bit but I can try and explain it in a PM or something if you like, it's pretty difficult without drawing it out as you watch or something though) What this means is all of your forces are acting upwards (weight transfer) or to the side, now if you think what would happen if the turret totally gave way, and there was no shell etc to catch the bits, the shock would be flung outwards because the force from the tyres is pointing towards the centre of the car and they pivot around the ball joint, so welding a piece in line with the forces wedged against another panel, works better than something at the back X distance from the line of forces where it creates a moment about the mounting point.

This is purely my educated perception of what is going on, and not coming from the design principles of a group A rally car.

[Pistol Pete]

I like to look of Wills TBH. Iainel, they way you show, will the horizontal bar not catch on the bonnet hinge when closed? Of course you could remove this issue by fitting catches!!

[Iain]

Not sure, I think it'll clear though - can't say for sure until the holes are drilled and the bars in place! It's tight either side, but looks harder to do it down the outside as the pipe would need bending to shape to clear the hinge.

I wonder what diameter toilet roll centres are.. I feel a mock-up coming on lol

[MK999]

I wonder what diameter toilet roll centres are.. I feel a mock-up coming on lol

About the same diameter as my rear brace, I.e the bigger size of CDS merlin motorsport do whatever that is lol probably a bit big :p

[Benn]

All the cages i've seen/helped fit tagged to the turrets are set up like Paul's hand drawn pic, but with the 45o bar maybe a little lower.

[Paul]

Just to put all of these pics in one place for my reference only really:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/hillclimbescort/011-4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF1579.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF1581.jpg

[Benn]

On the red one, where do to two center bars go? And whys the icv connected to a boost pipe?

[Paul]

clicky (http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132042&page=5&highlight=hillclimb)

Thats where the ICV goes on a LET Benn?

[Benn]

Yeah, cause the inlets different so it just connects in.

Of cage is quite cool. Wonder why it doesn't come over the to drives side too? Cage has some odd bars in the back too...

[Paul]

It would get in the way of the pedals I think mate

[Sturge]

Unless you're going rallying on the rough stuff it's going to make very little difference.

The gpA cars have the tube going alongside the turret as it provides much better support agaist the front end of the car bending as the vulnerable area is the support welded down the side of the inner wing, combined with a strut brace this provides more than enough lateral support. It's also a far easier way of fitting the front triangulation.
Track cars running wide slicks (i.e not novas) tend to run to the centre of the turret as theres a lot less bending forces on the front of the car and this ties the bars in closer to the strut centre to take care of the bigger lateral forces involved.

But as I said, unless you're running at the level of the 1L turbo hillclimb car, it's going to make no noticable difference. Running it down the side is far easier and misses the hinges without the need for a bent tube, just put an air drill in the gap and cut the hole with a holesaw

[LiquidPug]

......If I were to do this, I guess I could use 'saddle' clamps like these (defo for the top, not sure about the bottom as it would be at an angle?!):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Roll-Cage-Saddle-weld-on-bolted-clamp-38-1mm-11-2-tube_W0QQitemZ150387486222QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Ca rsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2303caee0e

Or would I be better just profiling the ends and welding them to the front hoop? Instead of the saddle clamps, have you seen these (http://www.ybracing.co.uk/page1.php?sitepage=3&subarea=250)? Might be a better option?

[Iain]

Yeah I came across those on my search for cage brackets etc. I imagine saddle brackets would probably be stronger, and cheaper when you look at the bracket and cage end piece.

To conclude this thread, I decided to go down the side of the turret! Will put pics in my WIP when I've made some real progress.