View Full Version : BIVA. Here's the final rules.
http://www.the-ace.org.uk/Chassis-and-Monocoque-Modification.html
Anyone else concerned about this?
Nah, most mot testers would know about it. So wouldn't know to pass it on to the big boys...
chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point
Depending on the body shell one as they've changed the writing of it, i'd get 7point.
But before the body shell one was, all panel from factor. No major cutting and changing(like flat boot floor or plating) If its still like that..
I'd get two points. (streering comp) lol lol oops.. But as i've said before, lots of people cars wouldn't pass it.
What I'm wondeing is (for myself) I get the car built back up, insured, taxed and take it for a test and it passes with no issues then I am pulled by the po po and they reckon the car is not as it is stated on the log book despite my insurers being happy would I then be done for log book misuse/misrepresentation etc?
I've heard that you can be off the road until it is checked over on the points system and if it fails then it goes onto an age related or Q plate.
We're all at risk TBH, tubs, wide arches, even denting the bulkhead for manifold clearence etc can knock down the 8 points needed to retain your cars ID.
If I'm reading it right, ANY change to a monocoque loses 5 points.
What a load of BS.
If its mot'ed then its mot'ed. They could only make you get another one.
As long as the colour, vin number, engine size and seat belts are correct there's not much they could pick up on...
Its still very vauge, any change to the chassis is a wide spectrum... What about crash repaired...
Dont worry, I should be Q plated..lol <
when do these rules come in.
as its saying some things like altering the transmission tunnel will render a car for a test.
not good imo.
Just talking to a mate about it, he says a Ford Zephyr with a V8, Capri struts and 9" rear end was grassed by an mot man who bizarely knew what he was looking at.
Guess he wasn't a friendly tester then! He has nothing to gain there IMO. It will only lose him custom.
The first lot, has been in place for years.
Whilst the 8 points system has been in place for at least 27 years (in its current form) DVLA have been sadly remiss in making the guidelines relating to car modifying known to those that it affects.
Years =27.
Testers are a law in there own. I used to get a advise for welded inner chassis... I know i did it for strength
The Simps
07-02-10, 11:11 PM
I'll be buggered then! lol
Saying that they'll probably have a new set of rules by the time we have our cars running in 2020 mate!
I'm sure this is all in force already mate. This is just confirmation I guess, but the DVLA etc are gettign a lot stricter.
LOL Simps. A great deal of us would be turbofkd! As you say though, it may change again - outlawing combustion engines. lol
ben if you read the article it states about crash repair.
and it says any alterations to the chassis are like li4mnp says not good.
so everyone with a XE cut out in their chassis leg needs a new ID lol
See my edit, the rules are is (8points) have been on the go for 27 years.
That's awesome, that means i get 2point. Just for the steering then..
What about crash repaired...
Q) It is the monococque rules that need the most clarification.
Your reply states that any cutting of the monococque" is considered to render the vehicle identity no longer original specification or of original identity ". This would suggest that any crash repairs necessitating cutting and removal of panels or chassis sections, or restoration work would call the vehicle's identity into question?
We presume that the point should really be that any cutting... other than in factory designed joining areas...would be the actual criteria?
A) In this respect it is necessary to differentiate between modification and repair. Any repair process that is in line with manufacturer's recommendations and that returns the structure to its original specification would not be considered to be a modification.
Ah cheers Ste, didn't read that bit.
Most cars get hardly any points. So don't worry.
Well I'm fcuked. Time to ring another car so I don't lose my plate.
They're forcing people into doing this. lol
They cant police it, most cops have no clue either.. I was asked once is the xe i had fitted was the std engine? As it looks big fora 1.4...
Wonder if they'd let me pick a cool Q reg..
Q2 ack would be frigging awesome..
A lot of cars will get away with it, but noticeably non-standard stuff like maybe mine, Simps etc if pulled over would I assume get the full treatment from the cops/VOSA. As said though, most will go unseen.
Only if the cops know what they are looking at...
Only if the cops know what they are looking at...
simps is a nova with a big conical tunnel down the middle and a pretty gearbox sat in the back, when finished at least, i think they'll notice! lol
i dont understand ANY of this....so ill worry about it when i get to whatever it is its about
What's the deal with this, has a high profile case been tested legally or something?
My reading of this is that it's a Ship of Theseus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) type statute rather than something to stop 'modders'. For the sake of clarity something has be laid down in black and white so there it is. I don't think the guys with chopped firewalls have anything to worry about in this respect.
If done for safety really. As doing all this mods in your own garage can be dodgy if you don't know what you doing.
They arnt stopping are doing any of it.. They just wanna be able to test it.
Dont worry about it, they are years off policing it and getting all the cars that need it to be getting them.
well thats my estate ****ed then lmfao
Mine ought to be a Q plate then, I think I scored 4 points :(
Lee's RWD plans would probably score him 0 points lol
all this does is incourage let's and xe's with logbooks saying 1.0 merit. what happens when you finish spending £20k on your car and are told by some little fool that its not legal? are you going to challenge them with a court case? will you win? i doubt it. also are they gonna make coppers take an nvq level 3 motor vehicle repair and service qualificatoin, and become an appreoved mot tester to be able to enforce these laws? i think not. its just yet more b/s aimed at taking money out of the average home builders pocket. now, wheres my logbook for my 9.2 keith black hemi engined morris minor 1000? its a 1.0 ohv a series, honest guv....
its ok jack, i doubt I would ever make mine road legal, and if I did, I dont see a problem with running a Q plate at all. Seeing as i probably wont even start it till mid summer, im not going to worry about it just yet lol
End of the day, the only way they can enforse this is through the MOT testers. If you get a valid MOT cert, I cant see how the plod can pull you and impound your car for breaking modification rules if the Tester has passed it for use on the road. Loopholes exist obviously, ie MOT the car, and then mod its tits off in 6 months, essentially you have a road legal MOT'd car for the remaining 6 months.
In this case I would suggest having some written proof from the tester that the car was in its current state at the time of test, OR you fully declare the car to your insurerds before the MOT, in which case your complete mod list will be on the system before the MOT was issued.
Thats why I can see why the tester mentioned earlier in the thread got tetchy, as in effect its his ass on the line if your stopped in a car that should be Q plated, and again, i suggest the above method to prove the car was in the same state at time of MOT using an insurance declaration. (as essentially an MOT stated the car is roadworthty on the day of MOT. If the wheel falls off the next day, the tester is not liable as far as i'm aware).
So long as you tell your insurers everything, and you then take it to a tester, and it passes, and you tax it in the band its supposed to be in, how are they going to tell you you're in an illegal vehicle?
agreed lee, but it comes back to the point of: arsey coppers will try and tell you it is illegal, even though they have no qualifications. its like needing a brain surgeon and getting a gay porn star. cops aint mechanics. also if you have a q plate or the car is that majorly modified what about the IVA test?
It would have to pass the IVA, that goes without saying.
bear in mind tho a vosa bod at police check points can tear your mot certificate up if they want to
aye but as the cheif of humberside police admitted on a cruise forum here, anmot is only valid at the time the car is on the ramp. as soon as it leaves the test premises it aint worth jack shizzle.
so, let me get this straight, if a user on here fits a let to a nova, fits bigger brakes ans better susp and cuts the front valance for intercooler clearance, does it need a q plate? as thats mods to nearly every part, shell, engine, susp, brakes? if so, 99% of cars on here are hookey.
so, let me get this straight, if a user on here fits a let to a nova, fits bigger brakes ans better susp and cuts the front valance for intercooler clearance, does it need a q plate? as thats mods to nearly every part, shell, engine, susp, brakes? if so, 99% of cars on here are hookey.pretty much
i can see it now, "northants police raid pvs in crackdown on illegal engine swaps and modified cars..."
this is gonna be one big tin of worms...
so, let me get this straight, if a user on here fits a let to a nova, fits bigger brakes ans better susp and cuts the front valance for intercooler clearance, does it need a q plate? as thats mods to nearly every part, shell, engine, susp, brakes? if so, 99% of cars on here are hookey.
That's what i've said a few time. I lot of cars don't pass.
I think its a bit funny i only get 2 point.. But most people wont know about this as its not a public subject.
yeah, and therein is my point benn, its a way of cops sneakily using it to fine people and in worst case scenarios rip up your licence and possibl your job. think of it this way. you spend a tasty sunday polishing your nova. you decide to pop to tescos for some munchies, and tootle off down there. pc plod in his t5 armed responce wagon pulls you for a dodgy whatever. he then realises your driving a modded car and proceeds to get heavy (not in a lee/stu way) he decides that cos your car has never had an iva or biva testing, your mot is invalid, and as such your insurance is also, and your tax was done after your mot so it was gained by deception. thats six points for no insurance, 3 for no mot, and 3 for falsifying docs for tax purposes, which equals 12 points. bang goes ya licence and your car get impounded under section 59, meaning loadsa money to recover it and then the added cost of resitting your test etc. the knock on is the fact that you may need your licence for your job and that up the creek too. does anyone else see this? is it not a bit scary?
your all saying, "only if a copper knew what he was looking at"
if i was a copper and looked under a bay of a nova and saw some dodgy cut out of hammered in chassis mod. with out knowing the car or engine i would know it wasnt right, i would then work out why it has been done and work out that the engine isnt meant to be there lol.
and on jacks, the copper might not know it isnt meant to have a V6, but when they see the cut slam panel, im sure they could work it out lol.
so yes, the copper has to know abit of what he is looking at, but im sure he could see a bodge a mile off.
and benn, if he looked under your bonnet, he would just say, thats to clean, must not be standard lol.
unless the news get hold of this, i suspect it will stay "underground" for the mo.
yeah, and therein is my point benn, its a way of cops sneakily using it to fine people and in worst case scenarios rip up your licence and possibl your job. think of it this way. you spend a tasty sunday polishing your nova. you decide to pop to tescos for some munchies, and tootle off down there. pc plod in his t5 armed responce wagon pulls you for a dodgy whatever. he then realises your driving a modded car and proceeds to get heavy (not in a lee/stu way) he decides that cos your car has never had an iva or biva testing, your mot is invalid, and as such your insurance is also, and your tax was done after your mot so it was gained by deception. thats six points for no insurance, 3 for no mot, and 3 for falsifying docs for tax purposes, which equals 12 points. bang goes ya licence and your car get impounded under section 59, meaning loadsa money to recover it and then the added cost of resitting your test etc. the knock on is the fact that you may need your licence for your job and that up the creek too. does anyone else see this? is it not a bit scary?
that is a good point sloth, i think people on here are "brushing" it off a bit easily.
until someone gets caught then no one will change
to be fair if its designed to combat the amount of dodgy as **** "conversion/bodges" out there then it can only be a good thing
I agree with it in theory, but not the £600 it costs and the fact your car loses it's I.D
That puts me in an awkward postition, I have my car SORN and if I were to follow all of these correct channels it would certainly lose it's identity and also my number plate.
i thought an IVA test was £40
Was talking with some lad on RR about it and he says £600, dunno if that's if you have the log book revoked and are forced to go for a test though. TBH there's too many different 'rules' floating about for me to fully understand.
I need to take some time to read through what I have saved.
Either way though, the future is bleak. No question.
and on jacks, the copper might not know it isnt meant to have a V6, but when they see the cut slam panel, im sure they could work it out lol.
LOL the slam panel? The fact the bonnet doesn't clear the engine is proof enough that thing isn't really supposed to be in there!
All this crap is one of the main resons I lost interest in modifying road cars and turned to just building track cars and trailering them. Im not missing out seeing as to enjoy a properly quick car on the public road involves breaking the law anyway.
Ill probably get the next one MSA logbooked just to show I'm at least a tad responsible, but it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than an SVA/IVA, MOT, Tax ans insurance, and i can have just as much fun on the road in a standasrd 1.6 IMO.
Psh. You're not having fun unless you're on full lock and understeering so much you're making a mess of Saturn's rings. As well as your own lol
dave.gsi
08-02-10, 08:46 PM
whats the big deal about having a car on a Q plate? if the laws people are banging on about are enforced, 99% of modified cars would be on a Q.....whats the problem with that?
/\ there wouldnt be enough Q plates to cover all the modified cars lol
yeah, and therein is my point benn, its a way of cops sneakily using it to fine people and in worst case scenarios rip up your licence and possibl your job. think of it this way. you spend a tasty sunday polishing your nova. you decide to pop to tescos for some munchies, and tootle off down there. pc plod in his t5 armed responce wagon pulls you for a dodgy whatever. he then realises your driving a modded car and proceeds to get heavy (not in a lee/stu way) he decides that cos your car has never had an iva or biva testing, your mot is invalid, and as such your insurance is also, and your tax was done after your mot so it was gained by deception. thats six points for no insurance, 3 for no mot, and 3 for falsifying docs for tax purposes, which equals 12 points. bang goes ya licence and your car get impounded under section 59, meaning loadsa money to recover it and then the added cost of resitting your test etc. the knock on is the fact that you may need your licence for your job and that up the creek too. does anyone else see this? is it not a bit scary?
What? Why would that rip up you lic? If they pull you over and test you and you fail, you'll be told to take the car to a vosa test center. If they deem it to need a sva test (or what ever it is now) you'll be sent for one.
The road side test is just to make sure the car is safe and would pass a normal mot.
Just be cause you've not had the test, doesn't mean the car is illegal, then can only make you take the test.
There isn't enough "press" about this for everyone to know about it. 1in and 100 mot testers would know about it... and cops knowing? No chance, the most they'll do is ask to see the mot.
to be fair if its designed to combat the amount of dodgy as **** "conversion/bodges" out there then it can only be a good thing
the prob is, its not. its gonna be a blanket law to cover everybody, bodge or not. from experience, ive been pulled in a mates corsa sport xe and one copper said " mmm nice std engine there, i used to have a 1.6 sport like this" another saw the motor and said " thats fitted well, whats it go like with an xe?":wtf:
What? Why would that rip up you lic? If they pull you over and test you and you fail, you'll be told to take the car to a vosa test center. If they deem it to need a sva test (or what ever it is now) you'll be sent for one.
The road side test is just to make sure the car is safe and would pass a normal mot.
Just be cause you've not had the test, doesn't mean the car is illegal, then can only make you take the test.
There isn't enough "press" about this for everyone to know about it. 1in and 100 mot testers would know about it... and cops knowing? No chance, the most they'll do is ask to see the mot.that scenario happened to a local lad, who had a 1.6 8v motor in a 1.0 saxo. he got pulled for failure to declare and they did him for no licence, tax, mot or ins. licence gone in 10 mins. its the same thing just a different trigger.
Saloony
08-02-10, 11:10 PM
Load of tosh. No matter whether mod, original or rust you still as a tester, test it on its merits for strength, and same in engines and christ knows what else. Frankly your getting a bit excitable over something thats still a bit quiet.
that scenario happened to a local lad, who had a 1.6 8v motor in a 1.0 saxo. he got pulled for failure to declare and they did him for no licence, tax, mot or ins. licence gone in 10 mins. its the same thing just a different trigger.
Having an undeclared engine is a little different to having a legit car that has enough bits to qualify for a Q plate though... Thats blatantly taking the piss
that scenario happened to a local lad, who had a 1.6 8v motor in a 1.0 saxo. he got pulled for failure to declare and they did him for no licence, tax, mot or ins. licence gone in 10 mins. its the same thing just a different trigger.
Having an undeclared engine is a little different to having a legit car that has enough bits to qualify for a Q plate though... Thats blatantly taking the piss
That's just what i was gonna say, he got busted for a totaly illegal car. Nothing to do with the changes in mot law. So its nothing close to the same.
whats the big deal about having a car on a Q plate? if the laws people are banging on about are enforced, 99% of modified cars would be on a Q.....whats the problem with that?
*Bing*
Nowhere does it say you can't chop your car to pieces. You can buy a load of tubing and a welder and do whatever you want; these major changes and revisions will then be scrutinised and quite rightly too.
It's unfortunate that 'Q' is the bogeyman of the automotive world. It should almost be a rite of passage not something to be avoided! Building a car that can limbo under the bar and keep its 'original' number with the explicit intention to incrementally change it afterwards to a state where it would not get under the bar and would get a 'Q' is equally as sinister as anything negative in this legislation.
so, let me get this straight, if a user on here fits a let to a nova, fits bigger brakes ans better susp and cuts the front valance for intercooler clearance, does it need a q plate? as thats mods to nearly every part, shell, engine, susp, brakes? if so, 99% of cars on here are hookey.
No that would be fine providing the suspension and brakes are of the same type and mounting locations as specified. Engine only counts for a couple of points so as long as it's declared you're fine and providing you only cut the valance and not the crossmember you're ok as it's a cosmetic panel which is allowed. Basically as long as you keep the original 'cage' of the car intact, so chassis rails, crossmembers, A,B,C pillar frame, bulkhead and suspension pickups the same you're ok. Tubs in theory are fine but not turrets.
Basically the majority of old escorts etc being used for rallying technically fall foul of the rules but this legislation is only really in force to allow them to remove badly converted cars from the road. Work carried out properly to a good standard will be given a blind eye
I agree with it in theory, but not the £600 it costs and the fact your car loses it's I.D
That puts me in an awkward postition, I have my car SORN and if I were to follow all of these correct channels it would certainly lose it's identity and also my number plate.
Plausable deniablity.
No that would be fine providing the suspension and brakes are of the same type and mounting locations as specified. Engine only counts for a couple of points so as long as it's declared you're fine and providing you only cut the valance and not the crossmember you're ok as it's a cosmetic panel which is allowed. Basically as long as you keep the original 'cage' of the car intact, so chassis rails, crossmembers, A,B,C pillar frame, bulkhead and suspension pickups the same you're ok. Tubs in theory are fine but not turrets.
But even with the above in mind, almost all 20XE conversions require cutting/bashing into the OSF chassis leg, which is a structural component so falls foul of the regulations. Hmmm... the slam panel isn't structural and the V6 doesn't need to chop the chassis leg, win :d
Front mounted alts are gonna be popular if this does get enforced to the letter everywhere
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