View Full Version : Newbie/girly question :) 1.2 engines
Thundersmurf
09-11-09, 05:12 PM
My engine is kaput - needs, at the very least, a new cam and a new clutch. The car is a 1990 Flair 1.2 and I've been offered a 1.2i engine locally that is very cheap. What else will I have to do to fit this engine?
I won't be doing it myself as A: I don't have a garage and B: I don't have a clue!
I just need to know how much it is likely to cost me after I've bought the engine....
Any help would be appreciated :)
Is the current one carbed? you'll have a nightmare fitting it unless it comes with the full engine loom, which I doubt, as it's easier to pull those engines out by cutting the loom off the ECU. If yours is currently a 1.2i it's obviously just a case of plugging all the right sensors etc in.
Would it not be better to use the SPi engine for spare parts to fix your Carb'd engine.
Your standard 1.2 engine is actually better than the 1.2i as the 1.2i is a poor single-point injection engine, not a "proper" injection engine.
itl cost ill tell you that now !! fix your current engine as the carb engine has 1obhp more to start with plus can be fiddled more ! you would need a new feul tank and ecu plus wirring asswell as gettin the engine fittied ... !fix the old 1 or get another carb one to slot straight in !!!
General Lee
09-11-09, 05:27 PM
Would it not be better to use the SPi engine for spare parts to fix your Carb'd engine.
Your standard 1.2 engine is actually better than the 1.2i as the 1.2i is a poor single-point injection engine, not a "proper" injection engine.
what he said. :thumb:
MattBrown
09-11-09, 05:28 PM
Is the Flair model injection (Cooltigers is a flair iirc)
If its the same engine, its afew hours to take one out, put the other in, if your going from a carb to injection, as said, you need, tank, fuel lines, loom etc!
Its far far eisier to replace your engine like for like!
Also, photos of said nova??
as said if the engine is the same as your current 1 its as easy as hel!
all depends on who you get to stick it in for ya bt no way would it be more than £100
Welsh Dan
09-11-09, 05:49 PM
If you can source an engine of the same type, you might find it worthwhile joining the club then hosting a meet at your place, with a few members the swap would be done in an afternoon with a good bit of banter.
Otherwise, if you assume £50/hour labour charge at a garage and that a lot of garages would overquote to say 8 hours, thats £400.
Why do you think the engine needs a new cam? What problem are you having with the clutch?
MattBrown
09-11-09, 06:11 PM
TBF, I have an engine crane, and a small set of tools, cooltiger has loads of tools!
Make us Food, Cups of tea, and get some jammie dodgers in, and we will come do it for you!
Just pay for fuel!
CoolTiger
09-11-09, 06:21 PM
fancy coming to do a engine swop adam
yea ok nice of you to ask matt i could of been doing something rather importent
oh no problem can you bring your tools aswell
yea sure no problem ;)
lol thanks ofr askin first ;) mines a merit plus not a flair :)
A Flair "should" be carb. To be honest, it would be far more of a ballache swapping from the 1196 to 1195i.
Your best bet would be to put wanted ads up in here for a 1.2 carb; people can't usually give them away. It would be a lot less effort than swapping your engine.
Don't forget, technically an engine swap - even like for like - should be declared on insurance. You may find it better to source another carb engine and use that for parts to repair yours.
As said though, whats the problem? It may be an easy fix that someone on here can help with.
Jon_nova1
09-11-09, 07:25 PM
My flairs injection as standard...i mean before i threw a 2 litre in it lol
MattBrown
09-11-09, 08:37 PM
fancy coming to do a engine swop adam
yea ok nice of you to ask matt i could of been doing something rather importent
oh no problem can you bring your tools aswell
yea sure no problem ;)
lol thanks ofr askin first ;) mines a merit plus not a flair :)
And your gonna turn down a chance to see me?lol
Now now adam, come along dear.....:thumb:
CoolTiger
09-11-09, 10:41 PM
think i see you too much with you dreaming about me hugging u im worried lol
nova-taken
09-11-09, 11:30 PM
if its a carbed 1.2 u need, i got one here, runs, all anncineries are still attached, i have no use for it and its taking up much needed space, PM Me for more info
Thundersmurf
11-11-09, 01:02 AM
Cheers guys - To answer some questions:
Yes it is a carb model - should have made that clear, sorry.
The clutch has been slipping for ages, but no slips so badly that it won't move...
The reason I think that the cam needs replacing is this:
With the timing correct the car has no power at all, I struggle to get 30 MPH out of it, however with the timing SLIGHTLY out it runs pretty good, lots of power and pretty fast for a 1.2, however it does miss fire a bit due to the timing being out.
I reckon that the lobes are worn and if they are put slightly out then they are closing the valves correctly but when the timing is right they just aren't doing the job anymore.
I've had many mechanics spending many hours trying to get the car running right and adjusting the timing/mixture etc and when it is right - it runs like crap.....
There are already some photos on here of my car, I'm sure if you want to take the time you should be able to find them, but you won't like it, it's not "pretty". please don't start to slag me off again on this thread, there is enough of that on the project pages....
I just want to get the damn thing back on the road and running right - my dad has just been told that he probably has leukemia and I need transport quickly and cheaply to get him to and from the hospital.
Nova-taken - thanks for the offer of the engine but it's a bit far away for me seeing as I have no transport LOL any idea how much it would cost to get it couriered?
Also, are the Cams the same in the 1.2i's as the 1.2 carb models?
brainsnova
11-11-09, 01:28 AM
edit : what do i know lol
nova-taken
11-11-09, 04:52 AM
sorry to hear bout your dad smurf.
and i have no idea sorry, but if you can arrange it, ur more than welcome to the engine and f10 gearbox which is still attached, and no, the camshafts are different the 1.2i's camshaft wont work with the carbed 1.2 engine as the carbed version uses a "lift" pump which works off the camshaft, whereas the 1.2i doesnt it uses an electric pump. pretty sucky huh?
i have never heard of a cam wearing that much it doesnt work, it would have to be massive milage, or people throwing grit in the engine to make it wear faster.
have you turned the dizzy. this will advance and retard the ignition timing, XE dan did it on his 1.3 or 1.2 i cant remember and it made a massive difference.
and my flair is a 1,2 carb. and they dont break:)
p.s if you think it is the cam, whip of the cam cover and measure the cam lobes and see if they are with in the tolerances and that will tell you if it is the cam that is knackered
in my experience ive always found that the standard timing marks are more of a guide lol. i run mine with about 10 degrees more advance than the "proper" timing marks and it flys. i very very much doubt your cam is worn. id surgest getting someone abit better to set it up for you as imo any mechanic who just sets it to the marks and says that will be fine isnt doing there job properly
and my flair is a 1,2 carb. and they dont break:)
oh they do ;) mines getting tired :(
oh they do ;) mines getting tired :(
lol, dont admit that burgo.
and its no suprise, as you dont drive it lightly, or give it much slack when it comes to towing lol.
p.s you find halfrauds ok?
lol, dont admit that burgo.
and its no suprise, as you dont drive it lightly, or give it much slack when it comes to towing lol.
p.s you find halfrauds ok?
she still goes aswell as ever just now has an apetite for oil lol
p.s. see modern warfare thread :P
MattBrown
11-11-09, 01:13 PM
1.0 is the way forward though!
So, if the ignition timing, which I think we are on about, isn't bob on, it wouldnt matter would it?
As in, it will do no damage, as long as its not miles out?
The way I have always been shown/done it, is start it up, loosen the dizzy, and twist it both ways, untill the revs go up, and when the revs go down, then set it in the middle of the 2 points!
craig green
11-11-09, 02:21 PM
Don't forget, technically an engine swap - even like for like - should be declared on insurance.
:confused: Do you declare new tyres???
Surely changing the engine no on the V5 is all you need to do?
theoretically you should, if the tread is different! Lol
engine swap is a bit more of a major mechanical system though. Any monkey can fit tyres, but there's much greater risk of fail with a duff engine due to complexity
MattBrown
11-11-09, 03:03 PM
theoretically you should, if the tread is different! Lol
engine swap is a bit more of a major mechanical system though. Any monkey can fit tyres, but there's much greater risk of fail with a duff engine due to complexity
Im a monkey, and I can do all sortslol
Welsh Dan
11-11-09, 04:57 PM
Cheers guys - To answer some questions:
Yes it is a carb model - should have made that clear, sorry.
The clutch has been slipping for ages, but no slips so badly that it won't move...
The reason I think that the cam needs replacing is this:
With the timing correct the car has no power at all, I struggle to get 30 MPH out of it, however with the timing SLIGHTLY out it runs pretty good, lots of power and pretty fast for a 1.2, however it does miss fire a bit due to the timing being out.
I reckon that the lobes are worn and if they are put slightly out then they are closing the valves correctly but when the timing is right they just aren't doing the job anymore.
I've had many mechanics spending many hours trying to get the car running right and adjusting the timing/mixture etc and when it is right - it runs like crap.....
There are already some photos on here of my car, I'm sure if you want to take the time you should be able to find them, but you won't like it, it's not "pretty". please don't start to slag me off again on this thread, there is enough of that on the project pages....
I just want to get the damn thing back on the road and running right - my dad has just been told that he probably has leukemia and I need transport quickly and cheaply to get him to and from the hospital.
Nova-taken - thanks for the offer of the engine but it's a bit far away for me seeing as I have no transport LOL any idea how much it would cost to get it couriered?
Also, are the Cams the same in the 1.2i's as the 1.2 carb models?
That sounds like the carb needs cleaning out, the timing setting up properly. Mine was very similar at one point, two hours tinkering later including a service and it was all fine.
sounds like a classic case of the advance retard diaphragm leaking to me...
pull the little pipe off at the carb end & whilst the engine is running at idle, suck on the pipe. if the engine note changes, then it is working, but if the engine note does not change, then it is shot. I dunno if they still make them, it might need a s/h dizzy
MattBrown
11-11-09, 09:20 PM
sounds like a classic case of the advance retard diaphragm leaking to me...
pull the little pipe off at the carb end & whilst the engine is running at idle, suck on the pipe. if the engine note changes, then it is working, but if the engine note does not change, then it is shot. I dunno if they still make them, it might need a s/h dizzy
Very good point mowgli, didn't even think of that one!
Alternatively, could you not run the auto advance, but advance the timing 10' degrees?
1.2 are mechanical advance aint they?
Thundersmurf
11-11-09, 11:14 PM
Cheers Mowgli - I hadn't though of that either and will give that a go if I can find a new clutch cheap enough to get it running again.
It's not the carb - it's been stripped and rebuilt, and checked. the timing has been tried at various settings - it all boils down the : either it runs smooth but has not power, or it has power but misfires....
I'll check that pipe when I can, cheers guys :)
1.2 are mechanical advance aint they?
it is a mechanical advance, but the vacuum from the manifold sucks a diaphragm to work the mechanism. I had one fail about 20 years ago on my first 1.2
It only really has an effect at idle speed/\
Does nothing at any other time
it advances the timing whenever the engine is accelerating under load, that is the whole point of it
There is no vacuum at WOT, so its doing nothing.....
1. if they do nothing, why is there one fitted?
2. air rushing past the pipe will cause a vacuum in the pipe by the venturi effect
it advances the timing whenever the engine is accelerating under load, that is the whole point of it
or retards it under closed throttle positions so that it advances when there's no vacuum, which fits both what you and Adam are saying lol
1. if they do nothing, why is there one fitted?
2. air rushing past the pipe will cause a vacuum in the pipe by the venturi effect
As i said, when theres vacuum acting on the pipe(engine idling, throttle shut) it alters the timing, helping the idle lol
Jon_nova1
12-11-09, 08:50 PM
I have 2 clutch plates, ones still on the engine, get to birchwood, warrington and its yours:p
obviously they're not newlol
vauxluva
13-11-09, 10:02 PM
itl cost ill tell you that now !! fix your current engine as the carb engine has 1obhp more to start with plus can be fiddled more ! you would need a new feul tank and ecu plus wirring asswell as gettin the engine fittied ... !fix the old 1 or get another carb one to slot straight in !!! it is the worst ever lord nows wat they were thinkin although mine starts first crack ever mornin even in the freezin cold,it is funny to bounce it off the limiter from time to time tho any way,:thumb: get your self the carb 12,or jst get sumthing a lil fruity in there
sounds like a classic case of the advance retard diaphragm leaking to me...
pull the little pipe off at the carb end & whilst the engine is running at idle, suck on the pipe. if the engine note changes, then it is working, but if the engine note does not change, then it is shot. I dunno if they still make them, it might need a s/h dizzy
To second Mowgli, You should also check whether the 2 opposed springs in the advance retard are snapped. One of my springs on my 1.2 was snapped and I needed massive advance to keep it running right! If the timing was standard it would shudder to a halt and run on when switched off!
those springs also go slack but can be fixed with heat shink on the posts the springs go on to
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