View Full Version : Science behind lowered tie bar brackets
steg1970
27-10-09, 11:12 AM
Thinking of fitting these to my rally Nova but am unsure of how the handling will be improved. I only do tarmac events on fairly bumpy surfaces, Otterburn, Pendragon, North west stages etc. I currently use standard GTE thicker versions with poly bushes, the front of the car runs standard ride height on Bilstein 2.25 200lb 12"springs.
Can someone explain the advantages of lowering the front tie bar bracket?
How much should they be lowered?
What else should be done to complement this mod?
Thanks in advance
IIRC the lowering blocks are for clearning the 2.0 engine as i think the exhaust hits the ARB, so you lower it to clear the exhaust
steg1970
27-10-09, 11:56 AM
Is that the only reason?
I thought it improved the handling. I certainly don't need to clear the exhaust as its a 1400.
steg1970
27-10-09, 11:58 AM
Just read your post again, do you mean lowering the arb? I'm thinking of lowering the tie bar to front cross member brackets, I've heard it called anti-dive.
craig green
27-10-09, 12:05 PM
/\ ignore these comments.
Lowered tie bar brackets alter the castor angle. The benefit is less nose lift on acceleration, meaning less weight change to the rear & better traction, likewise nose-dive under braking is reduced. The turn-in is also improved. Do it.
GRUNT 16V
27-10-09, 12:35 PM
/\ ignore these comments.
Lowered tie bar brackets alter the castor angle. The benefit is less nose lift on acceleration, meaning less weight change to the rear & better traction, likewise nose-dive under braking is reduced. The turn-in is also improved. Do it.Thank god someone with some sense !!!!
i had these fitted to my xe and never looked back brilliant !!
OOOO my bad, i read it wrong, only human!!!
and any pics of said articles?
steg1970
27-10-09, 12:51 PM
/\ ignore these comments.
Lowered tie bar brackets alter the castor angle. The benefit is less nose lift on acceleration, meaning less weight change to the rear & better traction, likewise nose-dive under braking is reduced. The turn-in is also improved. Do it.
Thanks Craig.
Is there a set distance to lower or is it trial and error?
All I need to do now is see if the Chris astley ones will fit with my protec sump gaurd.
craig green
27-10-09, 12:58 PM
The Chris Astley ones are shimmed IIRC so you can play with it. I'd imagine something like 20mm should make a noticeable difference. The ones I have seen looked to be about that sort of drop.
Something I have wanted to fit for years.
novanova636
27-10-09, 01:07 PM
is this just a case of lowering it where they connect to the front cross member. fit spacers inbetween the tie bars and chassie and use longer bolts?
/\ ignore these comments.
Lowered tie bar brackets alter the castor angle. The benefit is less nose lift on acceleration, meaning less weight change to the rear & better traction, likewise nose-dive under braking is reduced. The turn-in is also improved. Do it.
No doubt it makes a slight difference to the castor angle, but it's actually the wishbone inclination that causes the anti dive effect, if you imagine the tie bar to the lower arm acting as a single wishbone setup, it will be angled towards the ground, meaning any force down on it is reduced slightly through the angle. Think of it as it being partway to pointing straight down, where obviously it wouldn't move at all.
Downside will be it will not take any bumps as well, as the wishbone takes a small amount of force that the spring usually would, and it doesn't bump quite as it should.
Weve got them fitted to our nova and they made a big difference over standard, as Mr Green said! They need lowering about 20ish mm, but you simply cant just lower the tie bar bracket as the bolt that goes horizontally into the front cross member will not go in. You will either have to modify the originals or buy some already done!:thumb:
Pic of ours!
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/a16vnv/tiebar.jpg
craig green
27-10-09, 01:52 PM
Glen, were yours bought or made? Where from?
Glen, were yours bought or made? Where from?
We bought ours from ASW motorsport (remember them?) 9 years ago! :thumb:
craig green
27-10-09, 01:55 PM
Yeah. ASW, Has whole new meaning now.
Yeah. ASW, Has whole new meaning now.
:p:p:p:p;)
GRUNT 16V
27-10-09, 02:02 PM
Mine were lowered 25mm, im pretty sure that measurement was taken from the rally prep manual
mines 25mm too, just a 25mm box section steel.
then 25mm round bar on the lower arm/tiebar
mines 25mm too, just a 25mm box section steel.
then 25mm round bar on the lower arm/tiebar
You need to space the lower arm out too?! I thought you just spaced it down on the crossmember.
You need to space the lower arm out too?! I thought you just spaced it down on the crossmember.
just on the crossmember, otherwise you're just running the arms lower, for more bump steer? lol
Pistol Pete
27-10-09, 07:34 PM
Didnt TrackDayNova have these fitted to his before he broke it? Or was it the CountVauxAlot who made some for his??
I'd did mine and it was noticeably better my xe got the power down a lot better
Craig/Glenn do they really make that much difference?
Mine were 30x30 ali blocks with the top holes extended
supernovaxe
27-10-09, 09:33 PM
do it ben, definitely on my list of to do's, like he said, does it make that much difference ? is it pratical for road use as theres limited wishbone play ?
GRUNT 16V
27-10-09, 10:50 PM
Craig/Glenn do they really make that much difference?
Benn i had these fitted to mine and they did make one hell of a difference in how it broke/acclerated and how it turned trust me!! I was thinking about knocking a batch up!!
craig green
27-10-09, 10:52 PM
Benn is slowly catching on to the idea of making his big-block handle....
GRUNT 16V
27-10-09, 10:53 PM
I had these fitted to my 1.4 sr way back in 1998 !!!!! its an old skool mod
Benn i had these fitted to mine and they did make one hell of a difference in how it broke/acclerated and how it turned trust me!! I was thinking about knocking a batch up!!
I'll take a pair.
Craig, never heard about it being done for handling. Only really for clearance...
Cheeky ****;)
GRUNT 16V
27-10-09, 11:01 PM
I'll take a pair.
Craig, never heard about it being done for handling. Only really for clearance...
Cheeky ****;) Tie bar lowering is made for handling and anti roll bar blocks are for the exhaust clearence, Tie bar lowering FTW:d
Tie bar lowering for f28 too i lowered mine 50mm at the front and 30mm at the rear by the tie bars.
The caster is altered with the shimming between the spehrical bearing and tie rod.
As a side benefit you ditch a big ass rubber bush so you lose some play in the system :)
20-25mm is the norm, some have gone even lower but you can run into ground clearence problems if you drop them too far lol
The caster is altered with the shimming between the spehrical bearing and tie rod.
As a side benefit you ditch a big ass rubber bush so you lose some play in the system :)
So the RJ ones (Chris Astley etc) can be used to improve caster angles while retaining standard lower arms/poly bushes?!
Also, are RJ tiebar joints suitable for bumpy country roads, or is it a track only thing?
lots run them on the road, just have to accept that you might muller a spherical bearing sooner than on track.... but its still gonna be a few years use.
note you cant get full/masses of caster with just the tie bars and std bushes as they will twist and bind up if you put too much on
supernovaxe
28-10-09, 07:43 PM
im confused, what rubber are you ditching? is it not just as simple as lowering the tie bar 25mm on some sort of metal spacer, longer bolts trough the top, and weld an extension above the original bolt hole going into the face of the cross member and drill a new hole to suit orginal , enlighten me....
just on the crossmember, otherwise you're just running the arms lower, for more bump steer? lol
i followed the simps guide in the articles, so should i lower the front some more?
Tie bar lowering is made for handling and anti roll bar blocks are for the exhaust clearence, Tie bar lowering FTW:d
Most big block novas don't run the farb tho, most have lowered tie bars to clear the gearbox (on a f28) Thats why i thought it was only done for.
Nova_Tek
28-10-09, 09:03 PM
Very interesting read never knew that the lowering of the front tie bars could actually make so much difference to puttng power down and braking. Seeing as I'm doing a LET then it will get done either way.
im confused, what rubber are you ditching? is it not just as simple as lowering the tie bar 25mm on some sort of metal spacer, longer bolts trough the top, and weld an extension above the original bolt hole going into the face of the cross member and drill a new hole to suit orginal , enlighten me....
you can do it the pikey way and mod the std item as you mention. OR you can buy them with spherical bearings in them...
i followed the simps guide in the articles, so should i lower the front some more?
Just looked at it, that's purely for f28 clearance, basically retains the standard geometry as far as possible, doesn't dial in any anti dive, up to you what you want to do about it though...
16v Nova Kev
28-10-09, 09:40 PM
link us up stu
link us up stu
www.google.co.uk
Just looked at it, that's purely for f28 clearance, basically retains the standard geometry as far as possible, doesn't dial in any anti dive, up to you what you want to do about it though...
Ok i'm now lost, every ones talking about lowering them down, which is what simps has done. Are you now saying that wont affect the handling?
Ok i'm now lost, every ones talking about lowering them down, which is what simps has done. Are you now saying that wont affect the handling?
In simps guide he lowers them at both ends, yes that will affect the handling, as any geometry change does, it will affect the track width under bump/droop and pretty much everything else very slightly, it's pretty similar to lowering a car with shorter springs wishbone geometry wise. However lowering them to obtain anti dive they are lowered at the front of the car only, so the lower 'wishbone' is inclined towards the back.
http://www.rc-truckncar-tuning.com/Kick-up.html that's actually the best explanation I can find, can ignore the kick up stuff as that's primarily an off road thing for handling bumps.
edit: also ignore the caster bit as the fixed joint is on the top of a nova and the ball joint is on the bottom.
Ok i'm now lost, every ones talking about lowering them down, which is what simps has done. Are you now saying that wont affect the handling?
I think what needs doing benn, is copy the simps guide but lower the front more than the rear to gain the anti-dive feature.
benton101
29-10-09, 01:25 PM
can this be done on a corsa
can this be done on a corsa
I do believe so, you would need to check the tie bar thickness to see if nova parts can be used or not etc.
GRUNT 16V
29-10-09, 03:02 PM
can this be done on a corsa
yes it can be done using the std corsa tie bar mounts and some longer bolts
GRUNT 16V
29-10-09, 03:06 PM
http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/images/tie%20bar%20brackets.jpg
here you go corsa boy!!
I think what needs doing benn, is copy the simps guide but lower the front more than the rear to gain the anti-dive feature.
That's what i was just gonna ask, so if i drop the front down it will help handling yes?
GRUNT 16V
29-10-09, 10:18 PM
That's what i was just gonna ask, so if i drop the front down it will help handling yes?
YES!!!:d
Sweet, now make me some Grant, i have spacing blocks comming so... ;)
GRUNT 16V
29-10-09, 10:22 PM
How low are your blocks?? (not bo$%ocks)lol :d
craig green
29-10-09, 10:35 PM
What needs to be mentioned in this thread is that all the acceleration forces through the wheels is braced against the cross member through the tiebars & brackets. Those opposite forces upon braking, I would guess are immense. The idea of snapping a tiebar brkt or similar is frightening in my eyes....
Proper weld penetration peeps if you are gonna play. None of this gay, birdsh*t welding or gasless efforts. LOL
GRUNT 16V
29-10-09, 10:36 PM
^^^^^^ What He Said You Have Been Warned!!!^^^^^^
That's why i want Grant to make me some.. Proper welder.
The blocks look 40mm.. Will find out tho.
That's why i want Grant to make me some.. Proper welder.
The blocks look 40mm.. Will find out tho.
You may be able to see the suspension under the front bumper with 40mm blocks on! 25mm will be low enough!
GRUNT 16V
30-10-09, 03:03 PM
as above !! as your running an F20 25mm is the norm.
40mm would have them touching the floor with your ride height ben lol
The Simps
30-10-09, 03:45 PM
Benn if you're going to F28 later you may aswell do the whole lot in one go (rears aswell). As has already been said for the anti dive benefits you need to lower the front more than back. Can be tricky when you're already dropping the rear 25mm as a large drop on the front puts a lot of strain on the bracket. I like what Rich did on his old LET but I can't find the pic. He welded like a new box section underneath the front panel then bolted the standard stuff to that. So strain is removed from the bracket and back to the box section/front panel.
Ah here we go!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/TheSimps/DSC00545.jpg
Ah here we go!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/TheSimps/DSC00545.jpg
^^^^You'll need a seriously good welder to make sure they dont break off! Will need plating on the bottom of the lower panel!;)
The Simps
30-10-09, 03:58 PM
Oh without a doubt!
Especially with a let! Its amazing what abuse they give a nova chassis. When I done the front end on my old red one for the intercooler clearance I removed the centre section and replaced it with a chunky piece of box that was wedged in. It was then welded up by a professional welder on a commnercial welder. Like so...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/TheSimps/Nova/Nova%20LET%20Build/P1010077.jpg
The welds then started to crack on the front face of the box section where it met the end plate. We then beefed it up with some blooming think plate...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/TheSimps/Nova/Nova%20LET%20Build/16-08-071.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/TheSimps/Nova/Nova%20LET%20Build/16-08-07.jpg
I was told the other week that the current owner of the car has had to have it re-welded as its starting to crack.
boffer8
30-10-09, 05:12 PM
You need some properly made suspension arms like these that i made as you can lower it all and adjust it all, made a world of differnece to mine but you have to be careful as it ripped my front crossmember to shreads so i now have 2 50x50mm box sections welded together acroos the front of the car to stop it from happening with some nice gussets. The spacer plates have been changed for one spacer now.
Here are some pics.
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo255/boffer8/IMGP1865.jpghttp://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo255/boffer8/IMGP1855.jpghttp://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo255/boffer8/IMGP1863.jpg
Dosent give the 'fixed' end much room to pivot....
You may be able to see the suspension under the front bumper with 40mm blocks on! 25mm will be low enough!
It was a guess as they look big, but might not be..
I did guess from the pic..
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o199/turbogav/IMG00315-20091025-1440.jpg
40mm would have them touching the floor with your ride height ben lol
lol center box is close enough..lol
Benn if you're going to F28 later you may aswell do the whole lot in one go (rears aswell). As has already been said for the anti dive benefits you need to lower the front more than back. Can be tricky when you're already dropping the rear 25mm as a large drop on the front puts a lot of strain on the bracket. I like what Rich did on his old LET but I can't find the pic. He welded like a new box section underneath the front panel then bolted the standard stuff to that. So strain is removed from the bracket and back to the box section/front panel.
at some point i prob will run a f28, at the mo the tie bar is 1-2mm away from the f20 so dropping it will be good for that too. I like what Rich has done there, but i thing a modded brackut and lowering blocks will be find at the mo.
Good info tho, cheers.
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