1600xe turbo

[Count Vaux Alot]

I have used the search and can find the information i'm after before any of you start lol

Anyway it must of been done a few times so has any one any info on how ie which turbo, manifold, management works best? as some of you know custom for me is not an issue, if thats the way it needs to be done.

What power can they make reliable?

Easiest way to lower comp ratio?

Ads and disads over an 2lt xe?

I have read about plenty of 8v's receiving forced induction but i can't seem to find much on the baby xe.


Any help please :thumb:

[burgo]

wait your asking us which turbo lol

there are piston available to lower the comp ratio usually on ebay.

[Count Vaux Alot]

wait your asking us which turbo lol

there are piston available to lower the comp ratio usually on ebay.

Yes which turbo others have used as a comparison to my ideas thats all.

I have seen the pistons any thing more cost friendly?

[AlexW]

Spacer plate as per 8v's.

CG would be worth speaking too. His ran on standard management iirc though.

[burgo]

ferriday engineering do spacer plates and mates of mine have used there copper ones a number of times and always had great results so i would recommend them

[Count Vaux Alot]

Are they just bolted between the head and block? with two gaskets?

[burgo]

you use one head gasket between the head and copper plate and blue hylomar between the plate and block

[Count Vaux Alot]

Does anyone know of anyone with a running example?

[burgo]

only craig green i beleave

[Count Vaux Alot]

you use one head gasket between the head and copper plate and blue hylomar between the plate and block

And there are no issues with that? How thick are the spacers?

[Count Vaux Alot]

only craig green i beleave

Is his 8v or 16v?

[burgo]

And there are no issues with that? How thick are the spacers?sorry to state the obvious but depends on the compression ratio you want to run.

his is 16v

[AlexW]

CG's and i belive there may be some over on corsasport.

Cg's is 16v. Although hes breaking his car?

[Count Vaux Alot]

sorry to state the obvious but depends on the compression ratio you want to run.

his is 16v

No the ones your friends have used

[Count Vaux Alot]

So CG used a rising rate regulator on his didn't he with standard management? Any ideas on what power and torque it made?

[burgo]

the ones my friends used were on ZVH's and were about 1mm thick i think

CG's
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/turbocraig/NovaGSi-WIP_pics/Novabits4sale064.jpg

[Ben]

I know regal built one x14 xe turbo in a corsa sport, they used to have it on there stand at shows. Got a figure of 180bhp in my head from somewhere.

[burgo]

for rough potential power figures look at the new corsa vxr's. they are basically a low comp x16 bottom end with a x18 head

[Count Vaux Alot]

Although hes breaking his car?

Is this true?

[Count Vaux Alot]

for rough potential power figures look at the new corsa vxr's. they are basically a low comp x16 bottom end with a x18 head

Exactly what i though in fact this is were the idea stemmed from. Do 1600 xe go from more money that 2000 xe's? ive never been interested in small block before lol

[Ben]

you can pick one up for £100

[burgo]

na can get baby valvers for £50 all day long

[Count Vaux Alot]

Really! worth a look then.

[AlexW]

Can buy a bare 1600 for about £75, with the complete setup (ready to bolt into a nova) my mate just paid £150.

[MK999]

Anything on turboing small blocks seems to be quite hard to get info on lol For some reason everyones very secretive about it or suggests the answer can be found in a book!

From what I've seen on the courtenay 8v conversions they ran standard management on a pressure switch which sends an ecu into cold start mode (which apparently is by far the worst/most bodge way of doing it) with a rising rate regulator. Haven't found out if rising rate reg alone is enough to fix the fueling, or what they did about spark retard under boost yet, google/forum searches don't seem to yield much either.

Do small block XE's have a knock sensor? Wondering if they're clever enough to realise that the spark needs retarding only on boost or if they just retard the whole map when it starts knocking. That might fix the spark retard. You may well be able to find out from work/know whether a rising rate reg going from standard to turbo is adequate for fuelling too. Rest is easy enough for you I'd imagine.

[AlexW]

Baby xe's do indeed have knock sensors.

[burgo]

they do indeed have knock sensors and it would be clever enough to retard it but wether it does it quick enough to avoid damage is something you would have to find out lol

[MK999]

they do indeed have knock sensors and it would be clever enough to retard it but wether it does it quick enough to avoid damage is something you would have to find out lol

Yeah but a turbo only needs retarding on boost, when it's idling etc it's practically running as N/A or with even lower pressure due to the restriction of the turbo. So I'm not sure if it goes ah crap knock "-1 degree across the board" or if it goes "ahh, knocking starting above 3000 rpm, retarding 1 degree from there up" and then when it does it at 4-5k etc etc... also how quick it reacts would be a problem as you say.

[burgo]

well going off how megasquirt works it only retards the point on the map its at until it doesnt detect it. then it'll try to add advance until it reaches knock again. thats assuming its in open loop mode, or is it closed loop, hmmm cant remember

[MK999]

well going off how megasquirt works it only retards the point on the map its at until it doesnt detect it. then it'll try to add advance until it reaches knock again. thats assuming its in open loop mode, or is it closed loop, hmmm cant remember

You can go off how megasquirt works but at the end of the day it's a totally different management system, may well do it entirely differently.

[burgo]

i know that and i also know i very much doubt anyone on here knows specifically how the knock sensor is designed to work on this management

[MK999]

i know that and i also know i very much doubt anyone on here knows specifically how the knock sensor is designed to work on this management

Was a long shot, but someone that's had a fuelling issue at high rpm that made an engine run lean or similar may do?

[peester]

lee303 built one himself i believe for somebody, not that long ago.. a x16xe turbo.. i asked craig at pv this year if his was the one lee built, - cannot remember what he said now..

[Edd]

Craig's is a Courtenay conversion.

[Count Vaux Alot]

lee303 built one himself i believe for somebody, not that long ago.. a x16xe turbo.. i asked craig at pv this year if his was the one lee built, - cannot remember what he said now..

Did lee detail the build anywere?

[novaboyopr]

my bros one, using spacer plate, custom inlet and exhaust. t25 turbo, adjusterble fuel reg, std management.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/millsey123/06072009027.jpg
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/millsey123/06072009028.jpg

[Ben]

my bros one, using spacer plate, custom inlet and exhaust. t25 turbo, adjusterble fuel reg, std management.

Any power details for it?

[novaboyopr]

not yet hasnt been rollered yet. but it is coming out next week in place of an n/a for a trackday. has got pics of the build but there on the slow s+itty computer so take ages to load up lol

[Ben]

lol memory stick in copy paste and onto fast computer then lol

[Count Vaux Alot]

my bros one, using spacer plate, custom inlet and exhaust. t25 turbo, adjusterble fuel reg, std management.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/millsey123/06072009027.jpg
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/millsey123/06072009028.jpg
The inlet looks a bit awkward running to the right hand side in the pics was there any particular reason for doing it this way?

Who made both manifolds do you know?

Is he running a cooler??

Some more pics and details would be much appreciated. :thumb:

[novaboyopr]

it was ran that way so the boost pipe would be easier to fit in, running the otherside the pipe would have hat to fit through the engine, rad and the turret this would cause alot more agg when intercooler fitting. Running it that way its like a LET and he only moved the rad over one way, as the intercooler has the pipes on the same end. doesnt cause any problems having it that way round and allows for the upgrade to bigger pipe due to space allowence.

yes he does have and intercooler.
i will try my best to transfter the images tonight once i get back from being dragged out shopping by the misses. lol

[Count Vaux Alot]

Anyone any idea of a stand alone management that would be happy with this set up?

[Edd]

Iv been down this road of thinking about a turbo on a 1600xe.

In the end it's cheaper and more reliable to fit a Rotrex C30-84/94 supercharger than putting a turbo on. Xe injectors, power box inlet, 1.1 fpr, cooler job done. Reliable 200bhp+.

IMO.

[Count Vaux Alot]

Very interesting comment there Edd has anyone completed this before? Any pics more info etc?

[Edd]

I'm in the process of doing this.

I spoke to chap at Gmcsuperchargwrs who are the uk dealers.
He has build two c16xe engines with these chargers.

One with the C 30-84 with the bits Im using, 204bhp he said.

Other one with the C 30-94 low comp pistons, and managment was 293bhp iirc !!!

Rotrex ftw.

[Edd]

On a 1600xe, you would mount the charger on the pas bracket, use a multi ribbed belt set up.

Rotrex charger are small so fits in there lovely, also they have there own oil res and cooler and are the size of a small turbo not like big eaton things.

Edd

[Ben]

Think baxter has a blower on his 16xe

[Count Vaux Alot]

Edd do you have any pics of said charger mounted or arn't you there yet? Are they expensive?

What management are you using? standard?

[Edd]

No pics yet, using standard managment.

They are about £1600 as a kit, you get charger, belt , oil pump/lines/ cooler.

Then you need intercooler, xe injectors, fpr.

Sounds expensive, but ad up the cost of putting turbo on !!

Check out Gmcsuperchargers web page.

Ben, Baxters charger was a Eaton, Rotrex ain't no bigger than a turbo,

[Count Vaux Alot]

Is the new mini charger any use?

£1600 is a bit steep given the power gains as a LET would cost around the same to fit i would have thought.

[mowgli]

count, the coopercharger was what baxter used.. yes, its huge, it was not the tidiest installation, but very effective.

[Count Vaux Alot]

count, the coopercharger was what baxter used.. yes, its huge, it was not the tidiest installation, but very effective.

Ah ok i will have a look - Could one be fitted to an big block XE? What power did Baxters make?

[mowgli]

with a bit of ingenuity, i'm sure it would fit.. his made 240+hp before they threw him out of the rolling road cos they were scared.... on his roadtest, he was wheelspinning in 5th & knackered a gearbox

[Count Vaux Alot]

HOW MUCH power??!! Did it subsequently die?

[Mazz]

Was that a proven 240 or pub-power figures?

[mowgli]

Was that a proven 240 or pub-power figures?

it was for real. baxter had some serious overgearing on the blower pulley & the engine came very close to exploding. burgo has it now in n/a form

[Count Vaux Alot]

What was the issue with it? Over gearing, too higher compression? The need for stand alone management?

[MK999]

What was the issue with it? Over gearing, too higher compression? The need for stand alone management?

He chucked on whatever pulley he could find on standard management and saab reds set at 2 bar (i think?), which it subsequently ran lean on.

[Count Vaux Alot]

What would be needed to run a charger successfully?

[mowgli]

a decent knowledge of pulley ratios, some decent manifold packaging, an oil feed & return, intercooler & management

[Mazz]

a decent knowledge of pulley ratios
And there lies Baxter's problem lol

[burgo]

baxters would have been fine if he had gone for aftermarket management but hes a bodging fooker!!!

the mini cooper s's are 1.6 and with a remap make 200bhp from what i remember. therefore if your thinking that route then the simplist thing is to use the same pulley ratio they use

p.s. i now have baxter saloon ;)

[Edd]

With a Rotrex you measure the bottom pulley and they surply the charger pulley in the right size

[burgo]

id rather work it out meself if im honest and save £1500 lol

[Count Vaux Alot]

baxters would have been fine if he had gone for aftermarket management but hes a bodging fooker!!!

the mini cooper s's are 1.6 and with a remap make 200bhp from what i remember. therefore if your thinking that route then the simplist thing is to use the same pulley ratio they use

p.s. i now have baxter saloon ;)

Very good point Luke with the ref back to mini them selfs - i to would rather work it out myself

Is the engine/all the bits for sale?

[novaboyopr]

No pics yet, using standard managment.

They are about £1600 as a kit, you get charger, belt , oil pump/lines/ cooler.

Then you need intercooler, xe injectors, fpr.

Sounds expensive, but ad up the cost of putting turbo on !!

Check out Gmcsuperchargers web page.

Ben, Baxters charger was a Eaton, Rotrex ain't no bigger than a turbo,

my bro spent £800 in all that was with making are own manifolds, laser cutting and a full rebuild.

[craig green]

Amusing comments in this thread, HYLOMAR to seal a head gasket!! (NO)
£1600 expensive for a brand new, warranted supercharger?? (NO)

Ref Mk999 comment on the Courtenay setup using a pressure switch to activate the cold running state, it doesnt it interrupts the TPS signal for WOT. If it did access the cold run state, it is merely lengthening the injector pulse width.

If I could add anything to this topic, it would be that its a massive subject that if researched correctly for decent results, would be a whole stack of sums & calculations to get it specced correctly. You need to remember that the stock management is never going to be ideal from a timing point of view. Using larger injectors & rising rate rail pressure is fine for low/moderate boost pressures. That may put off a lot of people, but specced properly, 6/7psi is very effective. If you want bonkers power, fit a C20LET or spend some serious cash & carry out your own R&D project.

[GRUNT 16V]

What mr green said do it properly or not at all

[craig green]

It's not so much that really Grant.

You could easily use any (smallish) turbo, not bother to decompress the cylinders, use a decent intercooler, fuel it with a 1:1reg & get great results.

Someone that knows there salt would find out the VE of the engine in the spec they intend to run it, calculate what size turbocharger to run, choose what injectors to use going by flow rates etc, determine the optimum intercooler size and many more factors besides. Both methods are capable of transforming the engine completely & shaving seconds from a quarter mile time. It's not as though car manufacturers invest millions developing engines for fun.

[GRUNT 16V]

???????? you got me im a bit fick

[Count Vaux Alot]

Thanks for your input Craig, some well put points.

[MK999]

Ref Mk999 comment on the Courtenay setup using a pressure switch to activate the cold running state, it doesnt it interrupts the TPS signal for WOT. If it did access the cold run state, it is merely lengthening the injector pulse width.


Intrigued how it acts with the WOT signal interrupted then? Also when you say interrupted, you mean it's telling the ECU it's not at WOT?

[craig green]

No, the pressure switch activates the WOT signal at the TPS eveen if the butterfly isnt at WOT, which obv acesses the WOT map. Its pretty irrelevant given the 1:1reg is doing most of the work in supplying the extra fuel. I am not saying this solution is ideal, but tbh, I can't really see anyone putting 20psi through a home made(bodged) turbo convesrion & making it last, not without spending out on some expensive custom parts, which would still fail due to development errors.

6psi boost, on a Nova GTE engine is in another world compared with the std engine.

[burgo]

the hylomar isnt to seal the head gasket its to seal the de-comp plate but meh. i know it works so thats all i care about

[craig green]

FAir enuff if it works, the cam carrier is meant to have the upper face of a HG underneath it though.

[Edd]

Think il still go with my Rotrex.

Lot easier to do and a reliable 200bhp.