View Full Version : Spring setups; Track cars.
Payday is coming up and one of the first things I want to sort out is the suspension, so it looks like this is where my first decent pay check is going. Just wondering what kind of setups people are running.
If people could 'fill in' the sections below it'd be a great help to me choosing my spring setup etc :thumb:
Front spring length:
Is the coilover platform above the tyre (yes/no)
Tyre size/profile:
Front poundage:
Engine:
Rear spring type/length:
Rear spring poundage:
Comments:
Also what top mounts do you use, any problems, pros/cons comments etc, cheers!:thumb: Any must have mods/items that I might have forgotten?
peester
07-08-09, 09:56 PM
dude its all a bit of each to theyre own..
heres mine anyway.. smallblock 16v
9" front springs
no platform is way below
195/45x15
200lb front poundage
1.8 smallblock
4" rear length/pigtail
180ishlb..??
Comments: Its crap on the road. too tough. Ive got alloy topmounts, rose jointed bits now too (tho not ran it with those yet)
I know setup is very individual, but I know roughly what I like and I need *something* to start from, so it's better than plucking random numbers out of the air lol
peester
07-08-09, 10:00 PM
i think the GAZ is the best compromise; its a proper coilover kit that slams the nova for good money, good on road and track from what ive heard.
I already have a set of spax rsx for the front and adjustable avo's rear, but both need new sets of springs, fronts will rub with standard bolts and adjustable top mounts, and rears are far too high.
GAZ is no doubt an awesome setup and tailored to your needs as well, but it's roughly £300-400 more than I spent on mine.
I already have a set of spax rsx for the front and adjustable avo's rear, but both need new sets of springs, fronts will rub with standard bolts and adjustable top mounts, and rears are far too high.
GAZ is no doubt an awesome setup and tailored to your needs as well, but it's roughly £300-400 more than I spent on mine.
you got a full set of avos for £10?!?!?!?!? lol
Spax rsx were £80 and the avo's were 70, gaz run you about £420ish with the club discount, lowest package etc don't they?
well either of those dampers you got for cheaps will more than likely need a rebuild. so thats £50+vat per corner, and they wont really be the same as new stuff + new springs... hmmm looks like its more than buying new GAZ's which you can spec the springs for and also get the odd bit of "custom" stuff done to too
GAZ if I sold my current setup (without considering I need something to roll the car on daily) at what it cost me, being £150 would end up costing me a total of £260.
To refurb the rear avo's, and replace the springs to ones of a new spec (the spax are near enough new and still work perfectly imo) Would cost £48 (Avo will refurb standard nova style setup dampers for £24 a corner incl VAT)+90 roughly = £138. Plus the fact the old 60mm rear springs, which aren't much use to me next to a set of length and poundage rated springs can be sold for £20+
That makes the GAZ option around £142 more expensive. I appreciate the input but it is something I thought about before deciding what route to go down, and this one was forced on me more than anything through my budget. If I find the setup lacks that badly on track I'll look into new coilovers, but for now I'd just like to see what people are running as both pairs of my springs need replacing anyway, as they're unsuitable for the car.
The Simps
08-08-09, 09:51 PM
In answer to your original question.
If you're looking for a track set up you can obviously go harder. If you are planning on running 888s you need to go a little harder as it helps to get the maximum grip out of the tyres.
I was going to be running 425s front & 350s rear on my fwd xe on f38 setup and go from there. Maybe try 350/300 and go from there?
I have 310lb fronts on mine, and the standard 175lb Avo rears.
The rears will be getting changed for something around 250lb though soon.
Ive yet to test it on track
The Simps
08-08-09, 10:00 PM
MK999 - you're running a 1.6 8v aren't you so won't need quite as stiff as us big block boys.
MK999 - you're running a 1.6 8v aren't you so won't need quite as stiff as us big block boys.
Yep, taking that into consideration :thumb: Just gives me something to go on, seems I was aiming far too soft in my original thinking, although I think 350 might be a tad overkill. 275-300ish front and 250 rear, with rear arb sounds like a fair starting point to me going from the info here. I reckon 6" is gonna be short enough to clear the front tyres, even if I ended up on 50 profiles? What about the rears, can you run straight style springs on the standard cups and if so what kind of ID do you need, or is it a case of modifying it all like olly h's setup?
The Simps
09-08-09, 12:54 AM
You say 350 sounds harsh but std avo's come in at 250 and thats for normal novas not big block and takes into account road use.
If you're going track based and looking to runs semi slicks like 888s I'd say you need to be in the 300s minimum, as I say 350 is a good place to start.
Aren't Spax's 200 as standard?
I'd always go a touch stiffer than you "think" for road use as you can back out the damping to compensate, where as if the springs are to soft you might be tempted to crank the damping up to make it feel stiffer and wind up having a crappy ride/handling car.
The Simps
09-08-09, 10:15 AM
I'd always go a touch stiffer than you "think" for road use as you can back out the damping to compensate, where as if the springs are to soft you might be tempted to crank the damping up to make it feel stiffer and wind up having a crappy ride/handling car.
He speaks sense. On my old turbo I ran 300 on the front and found the handling best with it turned quite soft on the damper.
You say 350 sounds harsh but std avo's come in at 250 and thats for normal novas not big block and takes into account road use.
If you're going track based and looking to runs semi slicks like 888s I'd say you need to be in the 300s minimum, as I say 350 is a good place to start.
Aren't Spax's 200 as standard?
My original thinking was, 250ish is the norm for XE fast road novas, so that on the lighter car would be stiff enough to do the job. Didn't realise avo's were 250 as standard though. I'm trying to think through numbers in my head without too much of a 'yardstick' so to speak. Doubt I'll be running semi slicks but probably half decent road tyres like parada 2's or Stu's usual recommendation of KU31's.
Good point made by Stu also, in pretty much any kind of motorsport related type stuff I've ever done I've preferred a slightly harder spring setup with less roll and a very reactive/twitchy feel to it anyway, and I'm not too worried about road comfort (I don't feel much difference comfort wise from my car to my mums renault scenic anyway? Unless we're talking big pot holes) So going slightly harder than I think sounds like a top idea.
Avo standard is now 300lb btw, they changed them recently due to feedback about them being too soft. Thats what a guy on the phone told me anyway.
And the standard rears are 175
Too soft for big block's I'd imagine? So 300ish maybe even 350 and soft damping with a bit of stu's thinking thrown in should do the trick. Still not sure what to do on the back, ideally an olly h style setup but obviously it's a bit more cash, plus I don't have my own welder.
Id go for 275-300 fronts, and 200-250 rears
Id go for 275-300 fronts, and 200-250 rears
That's pretty much what I was thinking above just before simps replied, I think on the harder side of that would be perfect for me. Need to find out the standard size of nova rear spring cups, but iirc they're diff sizes top and bottom?
The Simps
10-08-09, 08:27 AM
As you're not going to be using 888s I'd go a little softer and go with the 300 & 250 to start you off.
I take it your rear avo's aren't coilies then?
Just adjustable damper jobbies same as olly used to use. Adams old setup actually. 300/250 is what I'm gonna get I think.
I recently borrowed some springs to try out on my nova.
Bilstein coilovers with tarmac inserts,2 litre xe with kumho v70a
500lbs front and 800lbs rear.
The car handled brilliant :thumb:
This is for track use
The Simps
11-08-09, 09:24 AM
I recently borrowed some springs to try out on my nova.
Bilstein coilovers with tarmac inserts,2 litre xe with kumho v70a
500lbs front and 800lbs rear.
The car handled brilliant :thumb:
There you go - don't be scared to go hard!
I know its a different style of chassis but lots of the vx.elise lot are going 4-500lb upfront and 5-900lb at the back with great feedback. I'm 'only' on 425/475 at the moment and its fine for me. I think the std stuff is 250/300ish lol
You need it rock hard on the back,my car had 250 bhp and on 200lb springs the back would sit down,the front would lift loosing traction and wheel spin out of corners.
There was no problem with back end grip with 800lb springs :thumb:
This is for track use
jackosnovaturbo
13-08-09, 09:09 PM
I run a Gaz gold kit on my gsi c20let with 8" 325lb fronts and 9" 450lb rears. The front spring is above the tyre and I could even get a 9" spring in there on 16" speedlines.
It is very predictable to drive and not harsh through pot holes, but it is a bit choppy around 60mph on a bumpy road.
The cornering speed is immense compared to my old avo kit with softer springs.
The only problem with going rock hard is the fact this is also my daily, now I'm not expecting to float across bumps like a gentle cloud, and I wouldn't want it to anyway because I just like the way a lowered car bumps around lol But 500+lb springs on british roads are going to make the back doctors very unhappy with me lol
I spoke to Gaz about this when I was buying my kit - talked to Dave there about what spec i had, what tyres I'd run etc etc.
He recommended (and I bought) -
Slicks - Front 8" x 400lb, rear 650lb (I think on a 5" spring)
R888s (etc) - Front 8x 350lb, rear 575lb (again 5", i think). These figues are from memory as they are now on the car and i can't find where i wrote them down!
Car is a 1.6 8v, and stripped and caged but retaining all glass and steel panels. Weighs 760kg.
Just had it set up by some guys who run a lot of Stock Hatches (FWD 1600 8vs) and they put on 3degrees of front camber. They also recommend Gaz. Downside is that the kit cost about £900, although I suppose you could specify spring rates. I think Gaz would recommend a little softer than I have for road tyres, but give them a call as I'm sure they've supplied for Stock Hatch Novas before.
Mine is useable on the road - even some country lanes I tried (gently) yesterday before it packed up.
Does 8" get the front platforms clear of the tyres though? as mine will definitely rub when I get rid of the camber bolts if they don't clear the platforms. I assume the 5" spring is for a rear coilover setup?
Depends how low you have it.
Just get short springs and have the adjusters wound right up is the simple answer
It is indeed, I'll have to measure up on my coilovers at some point, as i'm not sure how short would be too short. Sorted the rear setup, pair of custom 250lb springs to fit the normal nova spring cups. Then i'll put some 300lb on the front, if that setup really doesnt work out for me at all I'll look into a full new coilover setup maybe in the new year sometime, depends how much money is floating around lol
peester
14-08-09, 09:00 PM
woah, never thought to run 400lb+ poundage on a stripped out rear??
On a FWD car all the rear wheels are doing is holding you in a straight line and dragging themselves around, grip isn't needed at all so you can dial it out with stiffer springs which make it oversteer more, fixing a FWD's worst aspect in a way. Higher the poundage the more skill required though generally, depends how you like your car set up :)
I'm currently working around the fact that I do like a twitchy, responsive, more oversteer dialed car, but I don't yet rate my track driving skills that highly lol
Does 8" get the front platforms clear of the tyres though? as mine will definitely rub when I get rid of the camber bolts if they don't clear the platforms. I assume the 5" spring is for a rear coilover setup?
A good question. The answer depends on what wheels / tyres you run!
The spring platforms are level with the tyre sidewall (at least at the height I have it set up at). Tyres are 195/50/15 and there's no clearance on 6" wide rims (ET49). I've now fitted a 5mm spacer and it seems okay, but haven't tested under hard cornering yet.
I did have 15x7 wheels (same tyres) and it just cleared without a spacer but I don't know the offset of those. I may try tomorrow with some other 15x7 wheels I have that I think are ET32-35 (VW offset).
Rear > 5" is for seperate springs / shocks, as per standard. Low but stiff.
what do you run on the rear spring wise then, adjustable platforms modded to suit or do they fit the standard spring cups?
If front springs are short enough platforms will clear no matter what tyres you run, assuming they're not RJ profiles and as big as the moon
craig green
14-08-09, 10:22 PM
Re the convo on page 1 of this thread I can only praise the GAZ setup I have been using for the last 3 or 4 months. Purchased through the club deal it was 400 delivered. (kit is 430ish + vat IIRC). I specified my spring rates & left the rest of it as it comes.
I have a 1.6 16v with the added weight of the turbo & IC etc etc. Had I known the turbo engine was on the cards I would have specified 275lb/300lb fr springs but am running 250's. At the rear (coilovers) I have 175lb springs. For just track use I'd go a bit stiffer, but generally on a nice flat, good surfaced road its planted. Just to add, I have just got clearance between the spring cup & inner tyre sidewall. (6x15 GM wheels-195/45)
If you retain the rear OE style seperate spring & damper though, on a track car you could expect 600lb or even higher, springs due to it being closer to the pivot (beam mounts). So bare in mind what type rear setup people suggest or quote for.
Good point on the springs at the rear actually craig, and does make me wonder whether 250's I have paid for are gonna be stiff enough... I'll give it a go on track though and see what happens. If I can get the suspension set up properly it may be ready for the png tour weekend, money is looking tight for the month at the moment though. :(
GAZ is probably the route I would go if I was looking for a new coilover set. At the moment I can't really justify ploughing £400 into a single aspect of the car, even a large one like the suspension. It may well turn out that what I have is sufficient for my needs.
On a slightly unrelated note, anyone know what the ID of spax rsx springs is? Have tried googling it but no luck, and I'm not sure I could measure it accurately with them on the car.
craig green
14-08-09, 10:43 PM
IIRC the SPAX springs are a smaller ID than usual ie AVO or GAZ.
I can almost promise you now, the 250's will suck. The GM rear springs from my GSi were incredibly stiff.
Are OE type standard springs not like 150lb???
The Simps
15-08-09, 12:27 AM
Spax rsx are bigger at 2 1/2 I'm sure. Its what Olly H was running and did some work to the collars to run 2 1/4 springs for extra clearance iirc.
Your poundage WILL come down to the tyre choice. The closer you get to slicks the higher it needs to be.
As you've said. I'd try 300 front and maybe a little stiffer on the rear 350/400 and go from there.
If you have the front avo coilovers, why not buy just the rears from gaz? Will be so much easier!
what do you run on the rear spring wise then, adjustable platforms modded to suit or do they fit the standard spring cups?
If front springs are short enough platforms will clear no matter what tyres you run, assuming they're not RJ profiles and as big as the moon
Standard arrangement - I tend to cable-tie the bottom coil of the spring in position, as it makes changing wheels a little more hassle-free.
Have you checked out how having a shorter spring will affect the effectiveness of the damper / ride quality, or other things like?
@Craig - do your front coilovers have the second (securing) spring cup? I think the Gaz set I just sold didn't have one. I reckon it might be this that necessitates a spacer for me. I also have a hunch that my currently fitted set have a fatter body, but can't find measurements of your kit to compare.
The Simps
15-08-09, 06:56 AM
Gaz gold kit is 2 1/2 where the normal kit is 2 1/4.
Thanks. I'll have to keep a close eye on the clearance.
Would a 10mm spacer have a huge impact on handling? Obviously I'd have to go to studs, or get longer wheel bolts.
If you have the front avo coilovers, why not buy just the rears from gaz? Will be so much easier!
You make a rather good point simps, might have to ring gaz at some point see if they can do some sort of special png deal on rears only... do you have to turret the rears for the coilover versions though? And will the rear turrets not bend eventually without a cage?
Teej: shorter springs should make no difference at all, same spring rate etc, only thing I can think of is the weight of the spring will be higher up, which is negligible imo
The Simps
15-08-09, 10:57 PM
You can normally get away not turreting the rears. Just a bit of hammer work sometimes. You want to be sorting some out before you add paint.
As far as strength goes there's different opinions. I ran on my avo's without any problems. Its triple skinned as standard plus you've gone round and stitched it. A strut brace would be a good idea tho to help reduce flex.
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