View Full Version : ecotec vs redtop
Tidy Max
12-03-09, 02:28 PM
..whats the difference :S
is a red top a high compression engine??
im not sure but isnt the ecotec just newer ??
Tidy Max
12-03-09, 02:34 PM
wouldnt have a clue mate! whys it called an eco tec?
i want to see figures and comparisons people!!
Pistol Pete
12-03-09, 02:39 PM
Have a search....
Ecotec is the later engine. Alot of people rubbish them because they have a few sensors, quite restrictive in standard guise (i think!). A few choice mods and you can get good power out of them. I think they are quite popular over the pond.
VX Andy has an Eco in his new Nova.
dj_wudgey
12-03-09, 02:42 PM
id still rather go with red top!! it hasnt got ecotec wrote on it!!
brainsnova
12-03-09, 02:43 PM
an ecotec nova does not have the same ring as a redtop nova.
Pistol Pete
12-03-09, 02:45 PM
id still rather go with red top!! it hasnt got ecotec wrote on it!!
Yeah because the writing causes serious power losses :roll:
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 02:47 PM
Coz of strict EU laws on emissions and stuff the ecotec (Emissions Control Optimisation TEChnology) was born which was meant to be a economical cleaner version of the XE hence it being the XEV.
Its about 14BHP down on the XE. They can be called the Ecowreck coz of the addition of more sensors and can be a nightmare to sort out sometimes.
But like pete 58 said you can still get some good power out of them with some choice mods.
TBH although they have some bad rep coz of all these electronic issues i.e the sensors. I wouldnt complain sticking one in the Nova if it were given to me. Plus being a younger engine you can get hold of a few for quite cheap too.
Pistol Pete
12-03-09, 02:52 PM
Have a look on sites such as www.sbdev.co.uk (http://www.sbdev.co.uk) They do kits that up the power, similar to XE stuff.
I guess more people stick to the XE because there is more stuff readily available for it.
GRUNT 16V
12-03-09, 03:00 PM
Eco Tec = Sh1t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Red Top = A+
This Is My View
and very blinkered it is too/\
the ecotec is a far superior engine, its designed for economy, but thats down to the std injection setup, junk that and fit bodies and theyre transformed. the std cam profile is a bit limp too, so thats the next step. the bottom end is stronger than the xe, due to the block having a better casting and the crank being very strong. having had a decent experience of both the x20xev and its little brother the x18xe, id happily fit either to a nova over a redtop. and they sound sexual on bodies and a 4 into 1 at 6500rpm....
oh and btw, look at the c18xe, basically a x18xe with the x20xev cams and ecu for extra fuel, they regularly see 140bhp as std, from a 1.8.
in summary, bin the injection, fit bodies and cams, and enjoy!!!
p.s use a f16cr box, it really transforms them, as does a lightened fly (flat xe one)
sloth
novaxe235
12-03-09, 05:28 PM
and very blinkered it is too/\
the ecotec is a far superior engine, its designed for economy, but thats down to the std injection setup, junk that and fit bodies and theyre transformed. the std cam profile is a bit limp too, so thats the next step. the bottom end is stronger than the xe, due to the block having a better casting and the crank being very strong. having had a decent experience of both the x20xev and its little brother the x18xe, id happily fit either to a nova over a redtop. and they sound sexual on bodies and a 4 into 1 at 6500rpm....
oh and btw, look at the c18xe, basically a x18xe with the x20xev cams and ecu for extra fuel, they regularly see 140bhp as std, from a 1.8.
in summary, bin the injection, fit bodies and cams, and enjoy!!!
p.s use a f16cr box, it really transforms them, as does a lightened fly (flat xe one)
sloth am i correct in thinking that alot of people also use the xev block with the redtop head on it , or is this just a myth ?
blue_peg_16v
12-03-09, 05:38 PM
ive never heard of that to be honest
mikey14sr
12-03-09, 05:39 PM
and very blinkered it is too/\
the ecotec is a far superior engine, its designed for economy, but thats down to the std injection setup, junk that and fit bodies and theyre transformed. the std cam profile is a bit limp too, so thats the next step. the bottom end is stronger than the xe, due to the block having a better casting and the crank being very strong. having had a decent experience of both the x20xev and its little brother the x18xe, id happily fit either to a nova over a redtop. and they sound sexual on bodies and a 4 into 1 at 6500rpm....
in summary, bin the injection, fit bodies and cams, and enjoy!!!
p.s use a f16cr box, it really transforms them, as does a lightened fly (flat xe one)
sloth
Couldn't agree more, standard inlet and exhaust manifolds are rubbish for power, the head design is good for over 200bhp in standard form.
The X20XER is a better starting point though, all-ready has better pistons, cams and exhaust manifold with 165bhp in factory tune.
Pistol Pete
12-03-09, 05:48 PM
am i correct in thinking that alot of people also use the xev block with the redtop head on it , or is this just a myth ?
Other way round i think. Eco head (better port design maybe) on an XE bottom end.
General Baxter
12-03-09, 06:08 PM
£400 for a 100k mile redtop
or
£100 for a 50k mile eco
i no what ill have lol
novaxe235
12-03-09, 06:17 PM
The X20XER is a better starting point though, all-ready has better pistons, cams and exhaust manifold with 165bhp in factory tune.[/quote] what car does the x20xer come in as from factory ?
Every Component On This Engine is Crap lol
They arent bad engines, the redtop just has that 'redtop' name and is instantly thought as better. Redtop is also easier to get parts for etc as they are popular and start with more power (from factory anyway)
Bit more wiring involved with the ecotec too as they have immobilisers
mikey14sr
12-03-09, 06:41 PM
what car does the x20xer come in as from factory ?
Just the odd special edition vectra as far as I'm aware of, and mainly on the continent :(
I know this isnt really related but the small block Ecotec's are the only vaux option for smallblock 16v's afaik.
But like already said, i would have a eco over a "redtop" (that word annoys me) anyday.
Nothing wrong with ecotec's at all.
yeah that always break down, thats why my 1600 16v ecotec did about 6k hard miles(track/pod etc) and never broke down once... :roll:
The XEV pistons are different to xe ones, different valve cutouts due to the valves sitting at a different angle than xe ones do(narrower head)
Slothsport-Thats the first decent post ive pretty much ever seen from you lol
+rep
thanks adam, i like to champion the underdog. the x20xer can be found in a few astra mk4 sri's and the vectra sri 2.0's post facelift. its a great engine, novaaxe (sp) your right, peeps do use the xev block, with xe pistons and the xe head, its also popular with the let lads. be different, fit one, add a homemade 4 into 1 (use an xe one and chop the flange off and swap it) fit gsxr bodies and megasquirt, and scare yaself silly!!!
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 08:33 PM
Bit more wiring involved with the ecotec too as they have immobilisers
Not the early ones mate like in the Cav's.
The redtop has been the automatic choice for people for a long time so its only natural to go for something that's been proven. But I agree that the Ecotec is underestimated.
The eco was designed for economy and emissions so they weren't going to beat the 150BHP XE. In saying that the 20XE previous to the C20XE had 157BHP due to slightly less strict emissions control.
A few years back Im pretty sure I saw a healthy XEV at a dyno run with an induction kit fitted and a proper exhaust system and manifold fitted in place of the more limp standard stuff. IIRC it outputted same as an XE (ths was in TV).
The Main difference in the Ecotec and the Red Top (XE) is the Ecotec was designed to be aweful and good for nothing. The Red Top was designed to be thrashed and start to smoke and "tick" in no time at all.
Ecotec is more complicated electrical wise with sensor failure a common occurance and they are a soft engine. There is however a story that goes that Ecotecs produced 180bhp from the factory but were detuned to become more Economical, hense the name Ecotec. Weather or not its true, I just dont care.
they do, from time to time, kick out a good figure, the best i saw was a astra sport, with a pipercross, 4 into 1 mani, adjustable fpr, and a set of fast road cams. he hit 162bhp at 5900rpm. not bad for the mods. the torque was better tho, 157ftlb from 3700rpm. very very nice...
dod, that relates to the 1.4 and 1.6 16v. lotus (who did the heads) had em at 150bhp on the std manis etc, and vaux told em to detune it. such a waste....
am i correct in thinking that alot of people also use the xev block with the redtop head on it , or is this just a myth ?
Yes, you can. They are almost identical apart from the Sump pan. Even the Pistons are the same. I'm building one at the minute.
they do, from time to time, kick out a good figure, the best i saw was a astra sport, with a pipercross, 4 into 1 mani, adjustable fpr, and a set of fast road cams. he hit 162bhp at 5900rpm. not bad for the mods. the torque was better tho, 157ftlb from 3700rpm. very very nice...
dod, that relates to the 1.4 and 1.6 16v. lotus (who did the heads) had em at 150bhp on the std manis etc, and vaux told em to detune it. such a waste....
Have you any info on how to bring them back to their former glory? Also, me and you need to talk about X18XEs and X20XEV combos.....
its down to mapping, inlet restrictions, cam lift, egr removal, sai removal, and a few other bits . whats the idea with x18 and x20 combos dodster?
You tell me. :D I have a Dead X20XEV and a semi Dead X18XE, you mentioned cam swaps and power gains, what you know about it all?
Have people forgot that a "redtop nova" is faster than everything?:tard:
Anyone who says the ecotecs are sh1t obviously know absolutely nothing about engines.
General Baxter
12-03-09, 09:55 PM
Anyone who says the ecotecs are sh1t obviously know absolutely nothing about engines.
my eco**** scares the **** out of me lol
andy, i love ya more and more...
dod how dead are they? whats usable?
blue_peg_16v
12-03-09, 09:56 PM
is that cos you wonder if it will keep running
£400 for a 100k mile redtop
or
£100 for a 50k mile eco
i no what ill have lol
You really need to move, as xe is 150 max.
I have a z18xe 5door Astra Sri-That is proper quick for its size.Id love to stick one in a Nova.It would give a tired xe a very good run for its money.
General Baxter
12-03-09, 10:01 PM
a scrappy here wanted £270 just for a bottom end here lol
Have people forgot that a "redtop nova" is faster than everything?:tard:
Anyone who says the ecotecs are sh1t obviously know absolutely nothing about engines.
Andy I have owned 3 Big Block Ecotecs, all of which died. My mate had an SRi Vectra, a quiet lad, wife and 2 kids, serviced regularly and always got what it needed, Went through 2 engines in 3 years.
They are in my experience and opinion SCRAP!!!
Sloth, they both boiled off the clocks a couple of times, both still run but they're knackered. I have a new X18XE to be fitted to a Vectra, what do you know about Cam swaps etc?
a scrappy here wanted £270 just for a bottom end here lol
I'll say it again, move.
My last one which has been the best out of the lot was 150.
blue_peg_16v
12-03-09, 10:08 PM
jesus £400 only paid that 10 year ago lol £200 max for an xe round here
i have heard the 2.0 mani and ecu setup on the 1.8 makes good gains. id get a haynes and look at the cam profiles, see if the 2.0's are better.
email novarally, he asks £500-£600 per xe.....
i paid £350 for my last un.
blue_peg_16v
12-03-09, 10:14 PM
jesus think i should start buying em and selling em on at those prices
I personally wouldnt pay anymore than €350 for an XE, ECU, Loom, All sensors and an F20. Although until recently the above was selling for €800+
email novarally, he asks £500-£600 per xe.....
i paid £350 for my last un.
So?
Pistol Pete
12-03-09, 10:19 PM
Novarally/Colins price is probably + shipping. But hey, if people are willing to pay it, then charge it!
ripp off imho...
Then dont buy one from him.
And as pete said sure that inc shipping on a pallet.
I wouldnt pay over 150-200 for one.
DW-Nova
12-03-09, 10:38 PM
If you can find a 20xe for 150 to 200 then you want to start buying them mate !! seriously now if you can find them for that then you'll make a hell of alot of money !! usually see them making £400-£500 for the whole lot. Now actually onto the point regarding the ecotec vs redtop, well imo i think your now best off going for the ecotec for a few reasons. Firstly is availability, secondly reliability, thridly price and lastly yes the quoted power on a redtop may be 157bhp but i'd like to see one actually make that quoted power after all this time and miles !! you'd probably be lucky to see 125/130 on a standard engine now.
Think i might have to start buying and selling them.
130 from a std engine? Thats a well knackerd one, as long as its been looked after and given death now and then iut should still see std power.
A lot of them havnt been looked after though, but saying that its the same story with the baby xe's
Yeah, but it doesnt take much to get them back, freash oil, getting them good and hot, then freash oil and such.
I struggled to sell my spare XE for £150 about 6 months ago!!
Also don't see why people get so hung up on mileage, my current XE is the quickest one i've had, has done 150k miles and managed 65 drag strip runs in the space of three months last year with no problems at all.
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 11:04 PM
Bit off topic but, shame LETs dont go down in price. Seem to hold value very well.
after driving many of both you can certainly feel the XE is tens times more lively with loads more get up and go to the ecotech
Snap Lee, my xe has 140+k and its the best one i've had, loves everything that give to it. Never fights when being fixed.
If you look right you can get lets cheaper.. but not by much.
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 11:28 PM
Its not about mileage its about maintainence; hows its been driven, how its been looked after and serviced. My dads SEH has 180k+ on it now and although it will soon need a rebuild as a few things are starting to need attention it still does really well and loves being worked.
god knows why lets are expensive, theyre crap tbh.
Tek, thats what i allways say, but most people dont, they think a low millage car/engine is better. Miles means funk all if in that 10k its not been looked after.
god knows why lets are expensive, theyre crap tbh.
You don't half talk some **** on here :roll:
Why are they crap? Take it you have loads of knowledge and experience of them as you seem to think you have on absolutely everything else?
LETS er far from crap, i do believe there far from being pushed to there boundaries tho
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 11:50 PM
Tek, thats what i allways say, but most people dont, they think a low millage car/engine is better. Miles means funk all if in that 10k its not been looked after.
I have always felt that a well looked after engine even with high miles can still perform very well, some engines I have witnessed even perform better as everything is run in / bedded in / loosened up as it were.
Bit off topic but, shame LETs dont go down in price. Seem to hold value very well.
if you shop around you could buy enough bits to build a LET for 5-600quid imo
even paying 1k for one id still want it stripping down and inspecting
You don't half talk some **** on here :roll:
Why are they crap? Take it you have loads of knowledge and experience of them as you seem to think you have on absolutely everything else?
im sorry you seem to have an issue with my opinion. <-- note that word...
i have enough knowledge to base an opinion on, and for the money of buying, fitting, and rebuilding one, there are better alternatives.
i dont think i have knowledge, i do mate.
if you like em fine, i on the other hand wouldnt and cant see why everyone screams about them. expensive to buy, tune, and run.
try a z20let, or a saab engine. or hell, turbo an 8v 2.0.....
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 11:53 PM
Oh and LETs arent crap damn it, Im gonna stick one in my Nova :D Granted they are bit high priced for the age but thats due to the fact that LET conversions are more popular and people are braking LET'd Cav's and Cali's to get hold of them. They should be cheaper considering XE and XEV prices. Supply and demand innit yo.
An engine can cost 1k used but you could get one for 1300 from Vaux rebuilt last time I checked.
True you could build one but Im not in any position to do so. Id rather get a cheap one and get it opened and inspected, as no doubt they will be thrashed.
Asa-James
12-03-09, 11:56 PM
LET's and XE's are overrated.
13sb is where its at
Nova_Tek
12-03-09, 11:57 PM
na mate 12ST is more like it
im sorry you seem to have an issue with my opinion. <-- note that word...
i have enough knowledge to base an opinion on, and for the money of buying, fitting, and rebuilding one, there are better alternatives.
i dont think i have knowledge, i do mate.
if you like em fine, i on the other hand wouldnt and cant see why everyone screams about them. expensive to buy, tune, and run.
try a z20let, or a saab engine. or hell, turbo an 8v 2.0.....
The quickest FWD Vauxhalls in this country all run C20LET's, why would they do that if they were crap and there were so many better alternatives?
I'd rather go on facts than opinions. You seem to do a lot of talking on here but never seem to back it up with anything worthwhile.
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 12:02 AM
If I were back at secondary school the best way to turn this argument into a fight was to shout out ''Oh noooo, he cussed your mum'' Then all hell would break loose.
Ahh the joys of school.
Same thing that happened to the XE is happening with the LET. Its a standard now, pretty sure that there are other possible subsitutes and contenders but the LET is tried and tested and is ready to go in. I wanted to turbo a NE, as I could have had one for nowt, but realised it was gonna take much more time , money and involvement to do it right and to get a good output. So I have opted to go for a LET myself.
my friend i suggest you look at www.vaux-extreme.com (http://www.vaux-extreme.com) and look at astra 8vt's astra mk2. 12.8 qtrs, from a 400bhp 8v turbo. hes after 11's this year at pv, and he will see it tbh. just because i dont shout from the rooftops about what im doing, doesnt mean im not doing anything ;)
i think that in 12-24 months, this scene will be totally different, and lets will be old news or the preserve of the "old guard" . good luck, i await meeting you at the pod some day....
dj_wudgey
13-03-09, 12:06 AM
sounds like it could going down here lol
meh jap engines is where its really at
meh jap engines is where its really at
Remember that Rev3 3S-GTE into a Nova thread?
That deserved a massive LOL. It wouldn't even fit in the cabin, let alone the engine bay lol
i think that in 12-24 months, this scene will be totally different
People were saying that 5 years ago, and tbh all thats changed is styling tastes. Engine wise, things are pretty much still the same. I'd say the only slight shift is towards small block engines if anything.
my friend i suggest you look at www.vaux-extreme.com (http://www.vaux-extreme.com) and look at astra 8vt's astra mk2. 12.8 qtrs, from a 400bhp 8v turbo. hes after 11's this year at pv, and he will see it tbh. just because i dont shout from the rooftops about what im doing, doesnt mean im not doing anything ;)
i think that in 12-24 months, this scene will be totally different, and lets will be old news or the preserve of the "old guard" . good luck, i await meeting you at the pod some day....
12.8 is pretty poor for a genuine 400bhp and there are a few let's in the 11's including one at 11.3 as you probably know!
Can't wait to meet you at pod or preferably York but I probably won't even have my car by the time you've built something!
Yeah, **** up the lot of you.
Anyway, as for Trader's XEs being more expensive than private sellers items, thic could be down to the fact that you will have come back on a trader if the engine is at fault where as a private seller might not.
Why are XEs so expensive in the UK? A mate of mine was offered 6 compete units for £1000 9mths ago.
meh jap engines is where its really at
Suzuki Swift 1300 16v in Novas. iirc theres even an adaprot plate to fit an F13 to these engines and they're very very sucessful in Rallying.
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 09:56 AM
Why are XEs so expensive in the UK? A mate of mine was offered 6 compete units for £1000 9mths ago.
I saw 4 XE's for sale on eBay quite a while ago (about 2 years maybe) All 4 for 300quid IIRC. But they weren't tested so there was no guaranty that they were gonna be in tip top condition.
Remember that Rev3 3S-GTE into a Nova thread?
That deserved a massive LOL. It wouldn't even fit in the cabin, let alone the engine bay LOL
There isn't that much difference in the size of the engine to the xe/let, both same bore and stroke so block is a similar size. It's just all the stuff that's fastened to the toyota engine and the fact it's mounted at a leaned back angle that makes it look so big!
Quite why anyone would want to is beyond me when vauxhall have the same size engine that goes in easily and can make the same power with some £50 chips!
People were saying that 5 years ago, and tbh all thats changed is styling tastes. Engine wise, things are pretty much still the same. I'd say the only slight shift is towards small block engines if anything.
aye but over the past few months, the large debates on mig and other sites, regarding alternatives to "the usual" have become more and more. look at v6 conversions, 2 years ago i was told "its impossible mate" on this very site, now theres 3 being built, and another 6 done. this thread shows people are realising that xe's and let's arnt exactly the value they once were. hell i remember a mate paying £250 for a decent gte, £150 for a very nice redtop, and finding it gave 167bhp on the rollers as std. them days are long gone.
as much as it must hurt the guys using the old technology, its time to move on. whos gonna be the first to fit a z20let?
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 10:42 AM
Until someone has the balls big enough to tackle the zLET wiring then it shouldn't be too long. Was looking at going for a zLET but I know the wiring is gonna be a nightmare compared to the cLET.
Courtenay does a Corsa B zLET transplant for 7k so if it can go in a Corsa B then its gonna go in a Nova.
V6s have been around for ages, its just that people didn't publicise them. If you were told "its impossible" you were looking in the wrong places lol I remember when I bought my current saloon, 2006, there were a number around then (for the £150 my XE cost me - not including all the extra stuff I had to buy - I could have bought three complete 2.5V6s) and I wanted to do one but went with an XE as it was "easier", it was certainly possible and had been done many a time before - people were just uneasy because of the weight of them.
I'm selling my XE and have agreed a price. TBH the guy is getting a drop-in package that he knows works, as its tried and tested in mine. Which is worth paying for. Bearing in mind the cost of service parts, ancilliaries etc, I'm probably selling it at a loss.
[edit] Poeple aren't putting Z20LETs into Novas yet as its easier to fit a C20LET. Not sure on the cost of a Z20 as i've not looked. And was that 167bhp XE standard?
yup, had a pipercross on it jack, but im going back a good 5-6 years. i understand what ya saying, and by all means im not knocking those who do use xe's in conversions, all im saying is that its now 22 years since the first ones, and about 19 years since the first xe conversion, time to move forward perhaps? if it wasnt for people slating the ecotec, and it having that name, we'd see em in all sorts. hell, a lad at lmf has one in a corsa b and says he'd never go back to an xe.....
nova tek, having looked at zlet wiring diags for the past 4 months for a mate, its not that hard tbh, in the end its very similar to a clet. atm it has the same issues as the first xe's "thats impossible to get it to run out of the original car!!" having been stood next to a zlet when a mate has ran it ON THE FLOOR out of a car, its not that complex. i personally like the vaux v6, its a very responsive engine if tuned right.
yup, had a pipercross on it jack
Pipercross filter and it made 167bhp? Methinks those rollers were in feelgood mode lol
i personally like the GM v6, its a very responsive engine if tuned right.
Better :D
probably were, it was at the old pioneer in hull.........
aye gm seen as its in lots of things. is your, ahem, multi cylinder, configured in a v formation engine modified at all?
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 11:12 AM
If I can find a decent priced zLET and have a word with my mechanic to see if he's ok on the wiring then I may consider it. Any differences to the cLET in terms of fitting? Does it use the same mounting kit as the cLET or a totally different one?
V6's are nice but what is the weight difference of them to a 2 litre 16v engine?
A lot of debate as to why people are going small block so they can keep some handling. Wouldn't a V6 start to get heavy in the front?
I can't really comment coz I have never been in one but people comment on the big blocks being heavy and having a detramental effect on the handling.
is your, ahem, multi cylinder, configured in a v formation engine modified at all?
Not as far as I know.
V6's are nice but what is the weight difference of them to a 2 litre 16v engine?
A lot of debate as to why people are going small block so they can keep some handling. Wouldn't a V6 start to get heavy in the front?
Not as much as you'd think, apparently. Although Lee has now dragged both across a garage floor so he should be in a good position to comment lol
I can't really comment coz I have never been in one but people comment on the big blocks being heavy and having a detramental effect on the handling.
...and those who say they handle toss are the people who put them on 60mm PI springs on gmax dampers with LickyLongTym HedgeSeeker budget tyres.
...and those who say they handle toss are the people who put them on 60mm PI springs on gmax dampers with LickyLongTym HedgeSeeker budget tyres.
lmfao!!! i just wee'd!
tek, it mounts the same, ya need a carlton c20ne (k reg>) bottom pulley, single v alt, i used a c20seh one, and flip the slider bracket round.
use an xe flat fly and a f20 or f28 and ya fine. not too hard eh? you may need to remove the cambelt end mounting, its on 3 bolts iirc.
same as fitting an ecotec dude. oooh full circle....
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 11:30 AM
...and those who say they handle toss are the people who put them on 60mm PI springs on gmax dampers with LickyLongTym HedgeSeeker budget tyres.
hahahaha lol Although I think they are called 'LingLong' It won't be Linglong till you're in a ditch lol
tek, it mounts the same, ya need a carlton c20ne (k reg>) bottom pulley, single v alt, i used a c20seh one, and flip the slider bracket round.
use an xe flat fly and a f20 or f28 and ya fine. not too hard eh? you may need to remove the cambelt end mounting, its on 3 bolts iirc.
same as fitting an ecotec dude. oooh full circle....
Already got single V puley alternator off an SEH
So not much difference with a cLET same conversion kit off Chris Astley I take it.
Hmm... interesting. All depends which one works out more cost effective. Gonna consider the zLET and if it works out similar cost to a cLET you never know :thumb:
hahahaha lol Although I think they are called 'LingLong' It won't be Linglong till you're in a ditch lol
I know, I was poking fun at the name. Actually, for years I thought the "linglong" name was a p!ss take, until a tyre fitter offered me some a while back. He looked confused when I laughed at him and asked what the real name of his budget tyres were lol
dj_wudgey
13-03-09, 11:35 AM
[quote=Nova_Tek]hahahaha lol Although I think they are called 'LingLong' It won't be Linglong till you're in a ditch lol
yea i used to have to fit these for people budget tyres are just ditch finders lol
good lad, yeh same conversion kit. theres more room in the bay too, as the heads narrower, and the slam doesnt need cutting for the intake pipe. a win win really. and nortecs saw 500bhp iirc......
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 11:38 AM
good lad, yeh same conversion kit. theres more room in the bay too, as the heads narrower, and the slam doesnt need cutting for the intake pipe. a win win really.
See now you're just trying to tempt me man :)
oh and mr astley was doing a corsa b zlet, so he'll know the wiring.... call him and ask, hes a mint fella...
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 11:42 AM
oh and mr astley was doing a corsa b zlet, so he'll know the wiring.... call him and ask, hes a mint fella...
Dude, you're gettin more excited then I am lol
Any weight differences between the c & z LET's?
afaik the z is lighter, by how much i dunnno...
Nova_Tek
13-03-09, 11:57 AM
Ok cool.
If its lighter its another small benefit. Now the hardest part is to get one for free lol
Rick Draper
13-03-09, 01:33 PM
im sorry you seem to have an issue with my opinion. <-- note that word...
i have enough knowledge to base an opinion on, and for the money of buying, fitting, and rebuilding one, there are better alternatives.
i dont think i have knowledge, i do mate.
if you like em fine, i on the other hand wouldnt and cant see why everyone screams about them. expensive to buy, tune, and run.
try a z20let, or a saab engine. or hell, turbo an 8v 2.0.....
FPMSL. Z20LETs are more expensive to tune than a C20LET as parts are more widely available for a C20LET.
You claim they are expemsive to tune, bollocks, a YB is a expensive engine to tune.
Rick Draper
13-03-09, 01:35 PM
12.8 is pretty poor for a genuine 400bhp and there are a few let's in the 11's including one at 11.3 as you probably know!
Can't wait to meet you at pod or preferably York but I probably won't even have my car by the time you've built something!
It must have been on a set of really accurate rollers lol lol
Rick Draper
13-03-09, 01:36 PM
aye but over the past few months, the large debates on mig and other sites, regarding alternatives to "the usual" have become more and more. look at v6 conversions, 2 years ago i was told "its impossible mate" on this very site, now theres 3 being built, and another 6 done. this thread shows people are realising that xe's and let's arnt exactly the value they once were. hell i remember a mate paying £250 for a decent gte, £150 for a very nice redtop, and finding it gave 167bhp on the rollers as std. them days are long gone.
as much as it must hurt the guys using the old technology, its time to move on. whos gonna be the first to fit a z20let?
FPMSL, i know someone about 6-7 years ago that had a V6 in a nova. Mag featured as well. Its not that it cannot be done, its just not worth doing lol
FPMSL, i know someone about 6-7 years ago that had a V6 in a nova. Mag featured as well. Its not that it cannot be done, its just not worth doing lol
Brett Rogan by any chance? It got spanked by every xe up the strip!
Rick Draper
13-03-09, 02:50 PM
Brett Rogan by any chance? It got spanked by every xe up the strip!
Thats the one, but i guess sloth was trying to break new ground....
Tidy Max
13-03-09, 02:54 PM
bloody hell, didnt expect this to turn into a 10 pager!!!
will have to have a read when i finish work haha
If i was given an XE and an ecotec and told to take one, i would take the XE, but purely as a comfort zone as I know the things back to front and inside out. Thats probably why the eco hasnt been chosen as much as it should. If you just want a quick Nova, a std eco will fit the bill fine, but I do know Paul Gamble (of PVG massive stereo corsa fame) has a 2.0 eco in his vec which has been nothing but a ballache from day one due to stupid electrical faults. But thats definately not to say they are a bad alternative. And if you are wanting to tune its balls off, you will remove all the sensor badness from it anyway, so in that case it makes no odds at all.
I agree with Rick, the V6 probably hasnt been done much due to the fact that it really isnt the engine to be trying to go fast round corners with. Jacks will be a cruiser, and Im learning my way around the 3.0 quite nicely (especially as I had to rebuild the loom pretty much from scratch due to the megabodge previous install lol They may not weigh much more, but one of the heads hangs right over the front crossmember, so the distribution difference is pretty epic IMO. Im looking forward to seeing how good / bad it is anyway :)
LET's are crap? Probably in the same way that XE's in Novas are crap. Set it up wrong and it will bite you in your ass and your wallet. I dont care how good the saab turbo's are supposed to be, force too much boost down its throat and it will explode like any other blown lump that is abused.
And again, id take a CLET over a ZLET due to ease of fitment and maintainance. Sometimes being different isnt the best way to go. Try to make the thing at least a bit reliable and easy to fix when it goes pete tong.
Although on another note I hope Jacks V handles a little bit, because im sorely tempted to have 6 TB trumpets sticking out of the bonnet on my next project now im developing an X30 comfort zone :)
Rick Draper
13-03-09, 03:41 PM
I agree with Rick
I think today is a monumental day, me and Lee have agreed on something lol ;)
and not whos giving the reach round.... lol
all fair points, all taken, apart from one, lets are expensive to tune, rick, you yourself know this, having a few friends myself with clet powered cars, and 2 very good mates with zlet corsa c's, i know from dealings with them, the zlets are more reliable, and show better returns for the cash spent. yeah, ill admit, zlets are around the 1500 mark, but buying a clet and finding a few faults, then a gasket kit to rebouild and whatever else it needs, soon adds up. i understand the trepidation of going out onto new ground, but someone did it with the first xe nova.....
my opinion btw, please dont be offended.
Lets are not expensive to tune, to an extent.
You can go from std 200hp, to EVO5 290-300hp with a chip swap, fmic,injector/fpr change... Will cost you like £150-£200 depending if your wanting new IC etc.
You cant get 90hp gains for about £150 on a zlet......
If i was given an XE and an ecotec and told to take one, i would take the XE, but purely as a comfort zone as I know the things back to front and inside out. quite litteraly the insides on the outside lol
actually it depends, the zlet likes to be tuned differently, so yes, the initial stage costs alittle more but the bigger gains are cheaper. my friends corsa c for example, is touching 390 bhp on omex, and a gt34. the rest is basic upgrades, he shopped smart, and got the parts he needed for £2k. he paid £1.5 k for a zlet fron nortec. how much would that cost for a clet? remember a zlet is younger, so is less in need of a rebuild, and is more plentiful than a clet. so prices will lower eventually. at the end of the day even i accept, one mans pot of sh1t is anothers pot of gold.
I think today is a monumental day, me and Lee have agreed on something lol ;)
pmsl. Date noted on calendar :D
and not whos giving the reach round.... lol
all fair points, all taken, apart from one, lets are expensive to tune, rick, you yourself know this, having a few friends myself with clet powered cars, and 2 very good mates with zlet corsa c's, i know from dealings with them, the zlets are more reliable, and show better returns for the cash spent. yeah, ill admit, zlets are around the 1500 mark, but buying a clet and finding a few faults, then a gasket kit to rebouild and whatever else it needs, soon adds up. i understand the trepidation of going out onto new ground, but someone did it with the first xe nova.....
my opinion btw, please dont be offended.
Rick was going for the most a CLET could give. It would have cost him the same if he chose a ZLET (minus the piston oil jets, but thats about it)
Totally agree that the older engine will be more liable to need a rebuilt, but tbh even boosting a younger 2nd hand ZLET up to nearly 400bhp without a rebuild is a bit risky, so on that basis your arguement doesn't really have legs.
And if you want a cheap turbo Nova, do you spend a grand on a CLET and risk it for a biscuit knowing that if it chucks a leg out it will be easy enough to bung another block on it, or do you double the outlay on stand alone management and fiddle about with the electronic throttle (which I am an avid hater of BTW, ZERO throttle feel). Again, its horses for courses, but seeing as the first option is easier, and you may well end up with an engine that will trot on reliably for another 40K, the CLET wins again.
So in esscence, it all depends on what you want from the car and how much you are prepared to spend, and how much spanner nouse you have.
It doesnt, however, mean either engine is better than the other when applied to a 15 year old Nova.
Although on another note I hope Jacks V handles a little bit
With me driving it? ROFLOLHEDGEFIREDEATH lol
bwahahahahhahahahahhahaha! i await its dead picsz.....
With me driving it? ROFLOLHEDGEFIREDEATH lol
It will explode into a million bits before it even gets near a shrubbery lol
Rick Draper
13-03-09, 07:07 PM
The Z20LET block is not as stable imho as a C20LET block. I have experience of this.
Also unless you have a VXR block then you still require oil sprayers installed.
Pound for pound a C20LET is no more expensive to tune than a Z20LET as you still have to throw everything away in the hunt for power lol.
DW-Nova
13-03-09, 10:14 PM
This has turned into a right little debate hey ! Pretty good bit of discussion here. well here is my view, for a start then the 20xe/c20xe is a good engine yes !! but it is getting rather long in the tooth now and fetches rather alot of money for what it is, factory bhp is 157 but as i have already said it's definetley not going to be producing this now ! yes the mileage is not all that matters granted but if your buying an engine your not going to have the slightest clue about this on the whole, people can say anything !! the ecotec has a bad reputation for a start but this is rather unfound imo, there are lots and lots of good ones around ! if you look in your local paper i bet you'll find a couple of 2.0 vectra's in there, ripe for donership ! basically i think that your getting alot more for your money with one of these. Now regarding the turbo'd options there's obviously the C20LET which still fetches alot of money and is also going to be rather tired by now, so in all honesty your going to end up spending alot of money getting one of these into a tidy and reliable specification. Next theres the Z20LET, these are more readily available for a start and your going to find yourself a much better one for the money when compared to the earlier "C" however i'm not particulally impressed by these myself as they simply dont feel very quick whatsoever and i would imagine that they would cause a fair amount of work regarding the wiring. Lastly there's the saab option, everything that you read about these says that their "Bullet Proof" but i think that this is somewhat unfound simply by the fact that as soon as we get one in (i work at a breaker yard) they sell ! plus i would imagine that it wouldnt be the easiest of installs. Now lastly there is the simple option of sticking with the 1.4/1.6 8v engines, these are really pretty good imo !! very easy to work on !!! very nice and light, easy to tune and very very reliable on the whole. Anyhow i've just realised that i've just posted a stupidly long post so here you go, have fun reading it lol.
This has turned into a right little debate hey ! Pretty good bit of discussion here. well here is my view, for a start then the 20xe/c20xe is a good engine yes !! but it is getting rather long in the tooth now and fetches rather alot of money for what it is, factory bhp is 157 but as i have already said it's definetley not going to be producing this now ! yes the mileage is not all that matters granted but if your buying an engine your not going to have the slightest clue about this on the whole, people can say anything !! the ecotec has a bad reputation for a start but this is rather unfound imo, there are lots and lots of good ones around ! if you look in your local paper i bet you'll find a couple of 2.0 vectra's in there, ripe for donership ! basically i think that your getting alot more for your money with one of these. Now regarding the turbo'd options there's obviously the C20LET which still fetches alot of money and is also going to be rather tired by now, so in all honesty your going to end up spending alot of money getting one of these into a tidy and reliable specification. Next theres the Z20LET, these are more readily available for a start and your going to find yourself a much better one for the money when compared to the earlier "C" however i'm not particulally impressed by these myself as they simply dont feel very quick whatsoever and i would imagine that they would cause a fair amount of work regarding the wiring. Lastly there's the saab option, everything that you read about these says that their "Bullet Proof" but i think that this is somewhat unfound simply by the fact that as soon as we get one in (i work at a breaker yard) they sell ! plus i would imagine that it wouldnt be the easiest of installs. Now lastly there is the simple option of sticking with the 1.4/1.6 8v engines, these are really pretty good imo !! very easy to work on !!! very nice and light, easy to tune and very very reliable on the whole. Anyhow i've just realised that i've just posted a stupidly long post so here you go, have fun reading it lol.
excellently put. i worked for a very large breaker for 2 years, and we sold 9 saab lumps in that time, all later ones not the early 9000 ones or 900's but 9-3's and 9-5's. the zswedes love em and by design they are super strong.
blue_peg_16v
13-03-09, 10:51 PM
the later saab lump would be no more difficult to fit than a let it has the same mounting points and will take an f20 or f28 box with an xe/let clutch and flywheel
whooo someone with a bit of sense!!!! shall i rant on again but saabs?
jimbob-mcgrew
14-03-09, 02:54 AM
change the fuse in my snes for me sloth, i cba lol
if you wernt miles away i would, i love them things....
craig green
14-03-09, 12:47 PM
YAWN.
The main advantage of the earlier XE over the later XEV (eco) injection aside is the valve angle in the cylinder head. This will always make a 20XE/LET a bit better in terms of outright abilities.
Personally I'd happily ignore the rep & have an ecotec. Far cheaper & likely to be less thrashed or miley.
boyle_46
15-03-09, 01:01 AM
so i could fitt my 900 turbo lump to my nova :D ! lol new projects me thinks , just skimmed over this
short answer yes, long answer, yes but...
Big_Chap
15-03-09, 11:07 PM
Mmm little surprised at the amount of redtop bashing! 5 years ago I think it would have been the other way round, what's changed?
Someone wrote redtops are crap iirc, had the car/engine more than 5 years and the 20xe has been in there over 10, I've not had any engine troubles, currently puts out 200bhp and sees 8k now and again, wouldn't call that crap.
Ps. This will be when my engine sh!ts it pants! lol
i called lets crap not xe's...
Big_Chap
15-03-09, 11:27 PM
Ahh ok. Still, wouldn't call them crap tbh, considered one for ages before going tbs, main put off for me was reliability but that could be more to do with lack of servicing/care by previous owners to be fair!
value for money, condition age, for the cost, its a daft idea, unless you have 2k spare and want 200bhp.
Rick Draper
15-03-09, 11:42 PM
what a bellend you are boy. Look at the cost of a YB and them step into the real world. A LET is funking cheap its just 99% of the vauxhall world are skinflints and want something for nothing.
blue_peg_16v
16-03-09, 12:27 PM
what a bellend you are boy. Look at the cost of a YB and them step into the real world. A LET is funking cheap its just 99% of the vauxhall world are skinflints and want something for nothing.
very true + rep :thumb:
i was having a "redtop" vs Ecotec debate the other day. Up here the cost of a c20xe/20xe is £350-400, it has actually gone up from when i last bought one 2 years ago (which cost £250). I would happily go with an Ecotec, its only a name and at the end of the day if you go on the hunt for decent power as said before most of the so called problems ie sensors will be ditched anyway. When i worked for Vauxhall near enough all the electronic problems on the Ecotec's were nearly all AFM's and ICV's and that was on the 1200s. I can count on one hand the amount of 2.0's we had in for nackered sensors.
If i was offered a redtop for the same price as folk on here are quoting then of course im going to take it but for me personally its much cheaper to go for an Ecotec. I personally cant be bothered trying to break into the unknown just to say im different, i would rather go with something that i KNOW works.
All this talk of xe xev ect and nothing been said about a c22xe :confused:
Well i would rather have a xe over a xev but now ive felt what the 16xe's go like as standard. As a everyday car not track use id go with a tuned 16xe everytime.
But i cant wait to see what my c22xe goes like to compair to a c20xe...........
DW-Nova
16-03-09, 08:06 PM
"BIGS" so your putting a 2.2 into your nova ? Sounds like quite an interesting conversion ! well the 2.2 dose have it's problems as i'm sure your aware of the timing chain issues, and without meaning to "diss" what your doing the 2.2 dosnt really put out that much power, anyhow it sounds interesting and i'm sure it'll have alot of potential and should feel pretty quick with a few mods, good luck.
"BIGS" so your putting a 2.2 into your nova ? Sounds like quite an interesting conversion ! well the 2.2 dose have it's problems as i'm sure your aware of the timing chain issues, and without meaning to "diss" what your doing the 2.2 dosnt really put out that much power, anyhow it sounds interesting and i'm sure it'll have alot of potential and should feel pretty quick with a few mods, good luck.
No your wrong, Ive got the 2.2 bottom end belt driven that only came in the frontera from 95-98. Im going to be using that with a c20xe head with tb's and 6speed. So it hasnt got all the sensors like the late 2.2's. And it will be all steel bottom end built by john reed engines and the head by swindon as thats who made the manifold so makes sense to me
novaxe235
16-03-09, 09:12 PM
No your wrong, Ive got the 2.2 bottom end belt driven that only came in the frontera from 95-98. Im going to be using that with a c20xe head with tb's and 6speed. So it hasnt got all the sensors like the late 2.2's. And it will be all steel bottom end built by john reed engines and the head by swindon as thats who made the manifold so makes sense to mebigs i thought about doing this is it as straight forward as it seems are the mounts the same which cam belt would you run etc pm me if u like .
DW-Nova
17-03-09, 10:42 PM
No your wrong, Ive got the 2.2 bottom end belt driven that only came in the frontera from 95-98. Im going to be using that with a c20xe head with tb's and 6speed. So it hasnt got all the sensors like the late 2.2's. And it will be all steel bottom end built by john reed engines and the head by swindon as thats who made the manifold so makes sense to me
Yeh i am definetley wrong there mate, just presumed you ment the later 2.2, forgot about the 2.2's that came in fronteras, sounds like it'll be a really good set up ! good luck to ya.
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