Nova GTE - turbo

[Fester]

What's the basic outline for the parts?

Are the pistons up to being machined down or replacements available rather than big head gasket?
Will a Dastek Unichip be able to control a 5th injector?
Any place in particular make custom manifolds to suit?
Reconditioned Escort T3 turbo with -31 actuator suitable?
Would an F15 gearbox be able to handle the power one of these would produce?
Whats the deal with getting all the pipework make up?
Any specific intercoolers anyone got in mind suitable for all of this?

Cheers, just an idea got going :)

[mikeoxford]

chris ward has a 1.6 turbs, have a look in the turbo section in the features to see what he is running or Pm him i guess

[Chris_W]

Fest,
As I said last night, I'd go with spacer plate to check everything works before you waste money on pistons, as if the project don't work it's something like ?100 loss as opposed to ?400ish loss if you go with pistons.

5th Injector not really needed as we discussed last night, though would be a nice addition if you got a proper mapable ECU in there.

As for manifolds, if you run a T2 (I'd reccommend it) you can buy a manifold off the shelf from Courtenay for something like ?250, as I said this is prefered to the arrangement on my car, but then again I have a T3 so didn't have that option.

I'n running the standard gearbox on mine, so F15 should have no worries with it, but remember to uprate the clutch, I've got one of those Black Diamond ones on mine, and it seems surprisingly effective, but then I don't drive like a nutter to often.

Pipework - Well, let's go with the basics, you'll need some Samco or similar bends and some metal pipe work, this will get the intercooler in no problem. The turbo needs an oil feed and an oil return, on mine I've got the oil feed taken from the oil pressure sender, and the oil return goes straight into the sump via a connector welded into it. Then you also have all the vaccum hoses, but once you know where they go it's just a case or again getting silicon hoses and connecting it all up.

Intercooler - I've got some unknown Jap one in my car, but looking at the size I'd guess a Renault 5 one or RST one would do the same job, but remember, the bigger the intercooler the better, I think the Universal ones sold by Forge would be a good bet, or if your really flush, or good at finding stuff in breakers a charge cooler would be good.

As I said, I didn't do the conversion on my car, but I have had a fair bit of it apart and this is what I've found from it. Anymore questions just ask, and if I can't answer it, I'll try to get the guy who did the conversion to.

Hope that helps

Chris

[mikeoxford]

found him then 8)

[Fester]

thanks chris


how much can the rods and crank take before nasty things happen?

[Chris_W]

Well, working on the theory that the 8V and 16V use similar bottom ends, the breaking point on the 1.6 16V seems to be up around the 200bhp range, but obviously if your gonna be rev happy put in some ARP bolts. At about 200bhp on the 16v I'm sure they say you should switch to steel crank and rods, but don't quote me as I'm not 100% on that.
So how's the project looking? :D

Chris

[Fester]

quite an interesting idea

yep youre right on the bottom end sharing, if, and this is is a big if, i would be looking for around the 180bhp mark

still looking into stuff

[Chris_W]

Well, I was thinking something similar. My engine is 'supposedly' making 150bhp at 12psi, so in theory if I dumped the adapter plate and got proper low compression pistons, and fitted a bigger intercooler, or maybe even a chargecooler 180-200 bhp should be possible quite easily with just a little increase in boost. All depends if I can be bothered spending the money, and chances are I won't as I'm looking to chop the car in for something else next year.

Chris

[neiloakley]

where does the fifth injector go? At work, on cosworths we use air injectors to control the wastegate. We take a presurised air feed from the fresh air side of the turbo, feed it thru four injectors and back to the wastegate acctuator. The injectors are controlled by a Pectel T6 ecu and means the boost can be electronically controlled (and can even be mapped).

[Chris_W]

where does the fifth injector go?

There is no 5th injector, extra fueling is controlled via what I believe is a courtenay developed system, and personally I think it's a bit of a bodge, when the turbo spins up and boost is created there is a microswitch that sets the injectors to full, so basically the injectors flow loads of fuel in, as they think the car is at full chat. Obviously it would be better to get a mapable engine management system in place so that the fueling could be accurately controlled on boost, and if you get a fancy one you can get it to control Nitrous, or water/methanol injection as well for you real speed freaks :D
This really is an underdeveloped form of tuning on the 8V and I think that someon could make a really good engine out of it.

Chris

[NovaNeil]

Your right Chris. That Microswitch Courtenay they fit is a bit dodgey!!! I've got a GSi Turbo which I had to have a full engine rebuild on because that switch broke and caused the engine to run very very lean. As a result detonation occured and cracked two pistons whilst the other two broke into pieces. That 150bhp at 12psi doesn't seem very good :( Mine is making 161bhp at 8.5psi, but it does have a CS15 head on it.

[Chris_W]

Neil,
The 150bhp is a pure guess, it's never been on the rolling road! We're guessing the power from how it compares with other novas. When it ran at Santapod for the novaload day it recorded a 15.5sec 1/4 mile, only missed beating the courtenay converted car by about 0.15secs, and that had flowed head, lightend flywheel, balanced bottom end and water injection, so I think the power figure is about right. Have you run a 1/4 mile in yours, if so what time did you get as I'd be interested in a comparison :)

Thanks for your input, it's not just be that thinks it's a bodge then! How have you sorted it out now, have you just bought a replacement, or have you got mapable ignition on there aswell now? One thing I would advise for any tuned engine is a Air Fuel Ratio gauge, as this might have given you a bit of notice that your car wasn't running right and might have saved you the rebuild! :(

Chris

[cmatty]

Hi,
I have a e16se turbo converted by courtenay too. I was wondering what spark plugs u guys use? Also has there ever been one of these that run more boost like more than 14 psi?

Matty

[Chris_W]

I just use Champion Copper Core ones on mine, and they run fine.

As for running more than 14psi, I don't know of any that do, I know of someone who said he thought his one would run 25 psi, but he sold the car before he could try it (The reason he didn't do it before was the car was running in after a rebuild, and he had fitted low comp. pistons).

Chris

[NovaNeil]

Firstly I use Splitfire Triple platium things in mine as there mean't to be a cooler grade plug which i've been told is better for Turbos.
I have water Injection ready to go on the engine which Courtenay said I could boost 10PSi with safely. The best bit about water injection though is that apart from being safer for the engine and keeping it cooler, you can advance the timing loads which gives at around a 10bhp increase. If you reckon your running yours Chris with 12PSi and its alright then I think I might try mine at that when the Water Injection is on.
I agree about the Air/Fuel ratio meter, it would of saved a lot of time and money. Im going to get one of those Lumination meters ASAP.
As for the 1/4 mile. I haven't had a chance to test it yet. I was at all the shows last year but each time I had the Actuator disconnected because I had a few minor problems with the engine, that I thought could cost me another rebuild. As it happened it was only a slit in the boost pipework.
If you've seen the feature on my car, you'll know that the engine is being put into another Nova this year, which will be ready in the next month or so. It will definately go up the strip at PV2003 so i'll see you there. Maybe we could go head to head?

[Chris_W]

I've been told that mine should run 14psi, but I don't think I'll try it, I like the engine just as it is now, and I certainly don't wanna rebuild it as I'll be selling the car in a few months!!!
If I have the car @ PV2003 I'll certainly run against you, but as I said, it's a case of if I have the car by then :?

Chris

[cmatty]

Hi,
Chris how did you lower the compression ratio, machined pistons? Also what custom ecu do you have because I have had enough of the standard air flow meter :evil: .

Matty

[Fester]

Well I ended up getting a GTE...

[Chris_W]

cmatty - Read the whole thread as your questions are answered already.

Fester - Collect the parts and do it, you know you wanna! :D 8) :D

Chris

[weegaz22]

just out of interest how thick is the spacer plate used to lower the compression when u turbo a gte? 3mm + 2 head gaskets? ive never seen this actually on a car and just wondered how thick it would be

[mowgli]

Has anyone checked the aftermarket piston suppliers ( KS Winston etc )???
I would think that somewhere in the world, GM does a 1.6 OHC (small block) with low compression for use with cheap fuel (South America would be about right). This would be a cheap mod for turboing.

If you get pistons for a 1979 Astra 1.3 ohc, the comp. is about 8.2 to 1 these would be great in a turbo conversion on an sr.

Also, Has anyone tried using bits off the Isuzu 1.7td as fitted in the Astra/Vectras? Outwardly it looks very similar to the 1.6 petrol lump.

[_Ben_]

What's the basic outline for the parts?


I used to own a Courtenay converted 1.6 GSi and in my opinion its not worth the hassle of fitting a turbo to the 1.6.

The option is far too expensive, a classic example is how much a replacement special build T2 is...mine cost ?750 and that was a cash price!

For similar money you could pick up a nice 1.6GSi 16V lump and fit a Mantzel Power Box to it...you'd similar power and it'd be far more reliable.

The bottom end on my motor was starting to get a little noisy when I sold it (an 86K miles engine) and that was only running 8psi boost MAX. As a point of reference that was 26k miles after the conversion....

IMHO.

[cmatty]

Yeah this is the dilemma I am facing at the moment. Do I rebuild the engine with forged pistons and run about a bar of boost or do I just wait a while and save for a c20let conversion. I am unsure but I think the fact that parts for the 1.6 just arent available, will sway my decision towards the 2.0. Also I reckon my gearbox is on the way out, can anyone advise what choices do I have apart from another F13CR?
Matty

[Fester]

f15 Corsa?

[_Ben_]

If you are going for the high power option i.e. more than 150 lb/ft of torque I'd go for the Quaife gearkit which will fit into either the F13 or F15 housing...

Its not the cheapest option but by far the most reliable---the part no. is GKE15CK from www.quaife.co.uk (I think its about 1500 qiud)

Its this kinda cost which makes the 2.0 16V option more attractive...

[Fester]

the whole idea was I thought it could be done, giving comparable performance to a valver, for less money and less hassle, and I still stand by that... just got to make it happen, struggling to get fine detailed information, going to start ringing around a few people

[_Ben_]

I see where you are coming from on that one, that was kinda why I bought the 1.6 turbo over a 16v turbo.

Turbo'ing the 1.6 can be a cheaper option, but only if you're gonna stick with low boost...say 5 or 6psi. That way costs would be kept to about ?1500. But who wants low boost?

One thing that the 1.6turbo conversion has over the 2.0 16v one is that you dont have to change the log book and insurance is a million times cheaper...in fact on my old Courtenay car it was about 400 quid cheaper than an Escort RS Turbo.

There's a guy named Spankee on migweb.co.uk, he would be a good person to talk to as he was mainly responsible for Chris_W's car. I think he had a bit of help from Dave Franczak (V-Tuning?) with regards to compression ratios and the required thickness of decompression plate...

[Sleeper]

ello chaps well if i was going to build another 1.6 unit i would def go for low compression pistons and engine mangament the reson why i did not do this first ...as i was was expermenting with things to find out what can be done on this engine regarding boost i have tired this once at a set 14 psi and car went like a rocket but with in a few mins....head gasket poped that was the last ever run it did at that boost .......but found between 5-8psi the car can handle it with no probs even with hard driving a never had a prob with engine apart from the adapter that was made which could have been made better..my other thought was a Rs turbo manifold cutting the flanges off and wellding some new ones to suit the nova head on the thing i like about this engine is cheap loads of spares easy to maintain ...regarding brake i would say 140-150 as never put it on the dyno never that brave lol

[NovaNeil]

The reason I had the 1.6 Turbo over a 16V came down to one simple factor. Handling. A 1.6 Turbo'd Nova can absolutely waste a valver thru the twisty stuff. It also has more torque and less weight. But your right about the reliablity, im trying to find a stand alone fuel management system for mine, as the "Bodge" set up mine and most others use is useless. I've been looking into Dastek (Unichip) but I've been informed this wouldn't work. Does anyone know of a system that would? Just a piggyback ECU would do, with a pressure sensor and a fifth injector, so that its smoother and not on or off like it is at the moment.
You can't beat the kick of a Turbo!!!

[Fester]

What reasons were cited for the Dastek not being suitable?

[NovaNeil]

Well the Dasket runs in conjuction with the original ECU which as you know has an airflow meter that tells it the amount of air going in so that it can match the right amount of fuel. With a Turbo connected The ECU doesn't realise how much Air is going into the Cylinders, it only knows the amount thats going through the airflow meter, The two amounts are different because of the Turbo compressing the air entering the cylinders and not the air going through the airflow meter (Sorry if thats hard to understand im not very good at explaining things)
What is needed is a sensor that fits inbetween the Turbo and Throttle body that measures the pressure of the air, then the new ECU would work out the amount of fuel required to match this air.
I've been told the Dastek plugs into the original ECU using all its original sensors, hence the Airflow meter. It is good in conjuction with a Naturally Aspirated Engine. But would be no good for what I need it for unless it has the capacity to have additional devices plugged into it? Does anyone know if it has or not?

[cmatty]

Hi,
I was told the same thing about the air flow meter, in that you have to get rid of it when using an aftermarket ecu. I will probably end up getting a standalone management system because I am thinking of getting some dbilas throttle bodies. Thats what the americans do with their turbo hondas they can get 65mm throttle bodies off the shelf along with the plenum all from the same company, jg edelbrock i think.
Matty

[_Ben_]

A 1.6 Turbo'd Nova can absolutely waste a valver thru the twisty stuff.

Everyone seems to state this, but to be perfectly honest Ive not noticed any real difference?!

Obviously the addition of an ECU/Loom which can read from a MAP sensor would be beneficial. I wonder how much work/cost would be involved in fitting an MBE ECU and loom to these engines? That way you can read any number of sensors, Lambda, engine load, crank position, boost etc etc.

I have a contact address for the guy who is responsible for most of MBE's looms if anyone is interested in that brand of ECU.

Cheers,
Ben.

[NovaNeil]

Hi Ben, When I said about the 1.6 outhandling the 2.0 16v Novas, I mean't on the rough country roads where I live. On a track I bet there wouldn't be too much in it. Its just on rough roads with the weight of the engine bouncing about its not as controllable as a 1.6.

Does anyone know if theres any difference between the Turbo Conversion on the GTE's and GSi's. Cause on my GSi theres a another pressure switch behind the dashboard that is linked to the Dash clocks, and I don't know what its there for? Maybe to stop the engine management light comin on or something? Does anyone know if the GTE's have this as well?

Cheers

[Fester]

whats the score with adding a manifold absolute pressure sensor then?

[Aragorn]

hrm on the point novaneil made:

an airflow meter that tells it the amount of air going in so that it can match the right amount of fuel. With a Turbo connected The ECU doesn't realise how much Air is going into the Cylinders, it only knows the amount thats going through the airflow meter, The two amounts are different because of the Turbo compressing the air entering the cylinders and not the air going through the airflow meter

this is wrong

the ECU does know how to handle it and the values the AFM will be reporting are correct BUT they will be waaay outside the normal range for the mapping in the ECU - the ECU wont know how much fuel too add because the turbo is forcing more air in than the ECU thinks is possible

a MAP sensor gets round this - BUT only with a turbo aware ECU, if the ECU aint designed for use with turbo it wont fuel for it

it should be possible to compensate for the lack of fuel with an AFM with the addition of a 5th injector since the errors the ECU is making will be constant

ie if it reads 100CFM as 50CFM because there never should be 100CFM going in then it will fuel for the 50CFM u simply need to map the 5th injector to the defecit in the fuelling accross the boost and rev range

[Chris_W]

Aragorn,
What your saying is correct, but the point to be made is near the bottom of your post. Whats the point in adding a fifth injector? I mean if your going to the hassle of fitting an ECU and stuff to run one extra injector, you may aswell just change the 4 normal ones for larger items and get a mapable ECU. No point over complicating a simple process! :lol:

Chris

[_Ben_]

Damn email notification didn't work :?:

Neil, I dont think there are any differences between the GTE and the GSi 1.6 Turbo conversions. I managed to blag a quick chat with the Courtenay guys last summer at a show and they only indicated that there's a difference between the earlier Courtenay conversions (like mine) and the later ones - basically they junked the rising rate fuel pressure regulator and vacuume switched wide open throttle switch in favour of the 5th injector thats being discussed here.

Interestingly, when I had my 1.6 Turbo the engine management light used to flicker sometimes when coming onto boost/nearing upper RPM. And without fail it always logged an octane plug fault code and throttle position sensor fault...Nothing was wrong with either.

I think the reason for the 5th in jector over uprating the standard 4 is its a cheaper out-of-the-box option. (Speculation on my part)

Ben.

[_Ben_]

Oh yeah, Neil have you got any Hi-Res piccies of your car? :wink:

I nearly bought it when it was for sale a while ago, but couldn't get shot of mine in time D'oh!

Cheers
(novaturbo@yahoo.co.uk)

[NovaNeil]

Hi Ben,
Sorry I have no Hi-Res Pics of the car, and I won't be able to take any because the car is a bare shell about to have a Re-spray and a Batmotorsport bodykit.
Ben I also had the same problem of the Engine management like coming on, and when I had it diaganosted it also came up as a throttle position sensor fault.

Aragorn,
Thanks for informing me about the Airflow meter, I didn't realise thats what was going on. :oops:

I've been speaking to some motorsport companies about the whole fueling problem and they've all warned me off about fitting a fifth injecter. They said that by doing this most of the fuel coming out off it will be forced into the two end cylinders because of the pressure and direction of the airflow as it goes past the throttle body. One company (Stealth Racing) Who specialise in VW Turbo conversions, said to get round this problem they fit 8 Injectors! 4 off which are controlled by an additional ECU to add the extra fuel required as there engines have a similar problem to ours, especially on the Golf apparentely. Although they didn't like the idea of a fifth injector they think it would be the best option on the Nova engine as long as you didn't have the boost turned up high, as this is what causes the problem with the fuel going into just two cylinders.

So Ben are you saying that Courtenay did some 1.6GSi Turbo conversions with a 5th Injector, cause i've seen some 1.4 Turbos with the injector but not the 1.6

[_Ben_]

Okay Neil, no worries with the pics.

Yep Courtenay have definitely done some 1.6 Turbos with the mappable 5th injector, there was a blue one knocking about - can't remember the guys name but it might have been "something Mathers"...not much help there heh.

[kavanagh23]

ive got a 1.8 8v, ive seen magazines where people have done turbo conversions themselves on 1600's, i want to know if its possible as these engines are very simular (ive got the 1800 running on 1600 GTE gear) theve used T3 garrets and have had adapters made to house the turbo on the manifold, also all this buisiness about compressions, how would i find out what thickness head gasket spacer i would need to lower the compression.
Also do you know of any places that would help me with these parts? thanks alot Dean :o

[NovaNeil]

Hello all,
I have some answers about fitting a fifth injector.
I spoke to Courtenay this afternoon about the topic which we have been discussing.
Firstly they claim they have never put a fifth injecter on a Turbo charged 1.6 Nova (as yet). But they have fitted a mappable fifth injector onto quite a few of the Corsa Turbo conversions which work the same way as the Nova's (using that Vacuum operated switch to increase fueling).

The mapple set up is basically the same as what they are using in there new range of Turbo conversions for the ecotec engines.
They never fitted it on the older conversions to keep the cost down, however they said it would be no problem to run it on a Nova.
Basically you need a ERL ECU ?235 and the fifth injector ?95. The ECU basically works of the rev range and is mapped accordingly to give the required fuel. For an extra ?75 you can have a map sensor, which senses boost pressure and works inconjuction with the rev range to enable 3D mapping which is a much more precise and superior set up.

Courtenay can both supply and fit this system.

This is exactly what I was looking for, so as soon as I get the money together i'll order it, but it will be a while before its fitted as i've got to rebuild the car first. I'll let you now in the future how I get on with it.
Coupled with water injection and a few other bits and piece's im going to try and push for 200bhp! Thats my aim anyway. :D

[cmatty]

What other bits and pieces, neil, out of interest? Also I was browsing the dbilas english website the other day and noticed that they have started to sell throttle bodies for the e16se engine with out TUV approval. I think I am right in remembering reading about these once and and dbilas were marketing them as suitable for turbo engines with up to 14psi of boost. I think with a standalone management system this could make some serious power without having to run a lot of boost.
Matty

[NovaNeil]

Hi cmatty,
Have a look at my car in the Turbo section, it lists what I have already got. I've decided to go for the Courtenay "Hi Torque" cam as well.
I like the sound of having Throttle bodies and a Turbo :D , but its another grand for the bodies, which means more saving. I'll look into it though, that may be VERY worth while. Any idea if the Bodies have there own ECU or do they use the standard one?

[cmatty]

Hi,
Well from what I have been reading about at migweb.co.uk and regal's website, dbilas throttle bodies use the standard ecu. They claim 25bhp increase for their c16se kit which uses the standard ecu. It is TUV approved so that must be an accurate figure but thats with a fast road cam that comes with the kit. The e16se kit is not TUV approved but on dbilas' website they claim 22bhp.

Matty

[NovaNeil]

Sounds good, but I think theres no way we'd get 22bhp on top of the Turbo Conversion. It would be nice if you could use the bodies with a stand alone fuel management system that uses a map sensor and do away with the standard ECU altogether :) That way you could get rid of the standard Airflow meter and make the route the air has to take before it gets to the Turbo a lot shorter. I'll have a word with SBD Developments and see if they can suggest an ECU that could be used as a replacement for the original one to take care of a Turbo. Maybe we could use an ECU from an already Turbocharged car of a similar type :?:

Anyone got any ideas?

[Fester]

bumped for jetta bloke

[jettasrfab]

ta fester, thanking you, there wrong what people say about nova lads, your cool

[cmatty]

I went to Accralite's website on the search for some forged low compression pistons for me e16se. I filled in their web ebquiry form and here is the replay i got back:

Yes we manufacture this one what size do you require and how many ?
Regards
Accralite

:D

Matty

[Fester]

post back up when you get some quotes!

[cmatty]

but what size do i ask for??

Matty

[Fester]

dont know, maybe tell them of the standard ones, the standard compression, and what we need it to be and see what they say and if they need more info?

[NovaNeil]

I'll measure the thickness of my spacerplate that Courteney use for the conversion then add to it the thickness of one head gasket then this will tell us how much shallower the Pistons each need to be compared to the standard ones.
At a rough guess there going to have to be nearly 2mm shallower than the standard ones.

[cmatty]

I havent heard anything yet from accralite about prices :cry:

Matty

[Rane]

too Novaneil

try megasquit it is a stand alone fuel system for the DIY. man whit inboard map-sensor max boost is 20psi ore 1,5 bar
www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html


Rane from denmark
RN-Porting

[cmatty]

I got in touch with omega about some forged pistons and they forwarded me to sbd developments. They have forged pistons in stock for the e16se and the sizes are 79.05mm, 79.50mm, 80.00mm and are "?387.30 +VAT a set, complete with rings, gudgeon pins and circlips". Does anyone know what size we need?

Matty

[NovaNeil]

They may be Forged but are they lower compression? Those measurements are for the diameter of the piston.
From my experience its the head gaskets that go before the pistons, unless your running very lean then the piston cracks and nearly splits in 2 (as I have found out the hard way). We need lower compression pistons, so we can do away with the spacer plate and the 2 head gaskets.

Rane,
Thankyou for the information on the Stand alone ECU. After having a long look through the website, I reckon it would be a bit above my head to have a go at building the ECU myself (As it comes in a kit form). It looks like it has potential to control our engines, but I just need to find someone with enough electrical knowledge to put it together.

Cheers

Neil

[NovaNeil]

I've decided to go for a DTA Stand alone Fuel Managment system for those of you who are interested. I'll let you now how I get on with it in the next few weeks when its fitted.

The ECU was ?550
Specially made loom ?300
About ?350 for all the sensors and things
And its going to cost ?300 to have it mapped as it takes a day!

Im aiming to get one of the most powerful 1.6 8v ever.
Does anyone know what the current record is??? Has anyone had 200bhp yet?

[Fester]

yoinks!

[cmatty]

Hi,
Nice a DTA management system what these 1.6 turbos really need. NovaNeil what have you done in terms of pistons and conrods for your engine?? Also what gearbox are you running? The only way I can see to run big power on these would be a F15 with a quaife straight cut gearbox with strengthened driveshafts.
Matty

[dav]

As for lowering the compression on the 1.6 before fitment of a turbo you dont need to bother! Mine runs with just one head gasket and no compression drop! I have had mine up at 12psi on standard injectors and not had any problems!

[cmatty]

Dav 12 psi on standard compression I think may be a bit dangerous but it depends on what you have done to alter the fueling. I think it is possible with the standard courtenay conversion with the lowered compression but the engine would run so rich off boost people would have to start calling u skippy :D .
Matty

[dav]

ive got a sierra cosworth fuel pump and a power boost valve set at 3.5 bar for the fuelling. i do have a courtenay switch and fifth injector but it is not fitted co its not needed.

[cmatty]

dav thats interesting that u have a cossie fuel pump. Do you have probs with kangooring and also do you still have the standard injectors? Hmmm if you can run 12 psi with standard compression whats stopping me running 14 psi? But one problem I can think of is that even though the engine can take the extra boost without breaking there could be negative effects to power by increasing the boost because of the extra heat(?)
Matty

[dav]

I have no problems with kangarooing. it doesnt over heat either coz ive removed the thermostat and have a frontera intercooler. i used to run it at 17 psi of boost when i ran 2 head gaskets so you should have no prob running it at 14. just back your timing off slightly and you'll be fine.

[cmatty]

Dav how did u retard the timing? On my engine I have an octane plug currently on 95 but I use super unleaded. Did u use a custom octane plug?
Matty

[dav]

mine is a GTE lump with a normal dizzy on it. you just slacken off the 13mm bolt and turn it SLIGHTLY towards yourself to retard or away to advance. By the way it is running standard injectors. i tried to use sri 130 ones and 16v ones but it just wouldnt idle.

[Fester]

cant wait to see the DTA setup

it should eliminate the need for various tweaking etc by just mapping to suit

there MUST be 200bhp in these engines

[cmatty]

With steel rods and low compression pistons along with the standalone 20psi+ is possible i reckon.

[NovaNeil]

Easy tigers!!!
12PSi with Standard compression!!?! Brave man!
I've had mine bored out to 1650cc and am using the metal head gasket spacer that Courtenay supply. Im just about to order two Competition head gaskets to put either side of the Spacer, ready for the DTA equipment to be added.
At the moment Im running 10PSi with Water injection cutting in at 8PSi.
The car runs lean off boost then rich on boost, which is a no win situtation as the only fuelling control at the moment is the Pressure regulator, which acts linear (ie. If I increase the fuel pressure it will make it rich low down as well as on boost).

The rods are standard (Can you get different ones?)
The Pistons are Standard over size ones (1650, as mentioned earlier)

I've just took a ?2000 loan out to sort the engine good and proper! All the DTA stuff comes to about ?1500 then im having an Electronic boost controller fitted as well which is used on VeeDub Turbo Conversions as DTA don't make one suitable.

Hopefully within the next few weeks i'll have one SORTED Engine. I just can't wait to see what it is like to drive and how much power it kicks out. I think im going for about 12, 13 maybe 14PSi as I've got to keep it sensible as im using the car every day.

The Gearbox is an F13WR off a Corsa Diesel to help put the power on the road rather than up in tyre smoke. Im also using a Black diamond clutch.

I don't think im going to attempt it all before PV2003 as I really want to take the car and not have it in a garage. So if you see me there, come and have a word and i'll tell you all the plans for it.

Cheers

Neil

[_Ben_]

Do a search for "Arrows Engineering" they make rods to order - they wont be very reasonably priced however..

Interesting point though, what kills standard cast rods? Is it high RPM or boost?

[cmatty]

Ben I was told that the standard cast rods will break at 15psi. I was also told that steel ones are available for these off the shelf. In our case boost kills the rods not high rpm( :?: )
Matty

[dav]

ive ran mine at 17 psi before for a couple of months running it every day and i didnt have any problems! cant do it now though coz im only running one head gasket now.

[Aragorn]

im guessing its not so much boost - but the power being produced at those boost levels that shatters the rods

ie tuning the engine naturally to the power levels of 15psi boost or using NOS to obtain those levels of power would also start chewing rods

[_Ben_]

I've got a N/A 16v lump and have been advised that the rods bend then crack at high rpm (greater than 8k sustained) - something along the lines of "high axial loading" which I presume means G ?!

I'm guessing also then a steel crank would be advised also?? All pricey stuff :(

[NovaNeil]

Hi Dav,
Just a few questions for you.
Why have you stopped running 17PSi?
Why run with no spacerplate at 12PSi as its a lot safer with it? Is it just for more power?
Do you know how much power it put out at 12 and 17PSi?
Any other Internal work on your engine?

I have ordered all the DTA gear, its coming a week Monday as the loom is being specially made. Im uprating the fuelling system to take 200bhp (just incase I get near that dizzy height) with 16V Injectors and a better fuel pump. Speaking of which can anyone recommend a good one? I would do the same as you Dav but those cars are a bit hard to come by in the breakers yards!

[dav]

Hi neil. ive stopped running it at 17 psi when i decided to run the car with only one gasket. The reason why i decided to do this was because i wanted to reduce lag and i could have the car just as quick running at 6 psi than at 17psi with 2 gaskets. it also meant that i didnt have to mess about with the fuelling to much because it is running lower boost. To give you an idea of how quick it is it sits with my mates brand new rs focus from stand to 150 mph on his clocks! the engine has been bored to 1650 with hepolite pistons, powerboost valve set at 3.5 bar, cossie sierra fuel pump, frontera intercooler, stainless steel boost pipes, T3 turbo and no thermostat. It all runs through an F16 gearbox from a '92 sri cavalier with a one off heavy duty clutch. Why dont you run your car on carbs with the turbo? I knew a bloke who used to run a gsi lump with a pair of 48 dellorto's with a group 'A T3 turbo off a cossie. this thing was seriously lethal. it would smoke the 17's in third in the dry!

[cmatty]

Sorry to resurrect an old post but at what rpm are people generally boosting 8 or 9 psi? Also what quarter mile times do people get with 1.6 turbos?
Matty

[NovaNeil]

There isn't an answer for that, as Turbo's spin up at different rates depending how much work/load they're put under. In my car, if you put your foot down it can take 1...2...maybe three seconds before im at 9psi and going like a bat out of hell, it also depends what rpm you are originally doing before you floor it.

Dav posted a time of 14.7 at PV2003 in his 1.6 Turbo

[Dan]

just outta curiosity was his time as driven on road or did he change some settings for pod only?? i.e adjustable suspension cranked to the max on rear, strip car, tyre pressures etc etc etc, i'm sure i saw him run but didnt take much notice about what car was set like???

[NovaNeil]

Couldn't tell you. All I know is the same you saw. He was running standard steel wheels and the back seemed to be really low.

[NovaNeil]

Hello all,
For those of you who have been following the progress of my Car with its DTA Engine Management System there is both good news and bad.
Firstly the good news is that all the DTA Equipment has been fitted along with a MK3 Golf GTi Throttle body (Much larger than standard GSi), Audi TT air temp sensor and Ignition Module, Ford crank Sensor and trigger wheel, GM 1 Bar MAP Sensor, Golf MK1 GTi Fuel Pump, VW Corrado VR6 Ignition leads and 2.0 16V XE (Grey) Injectors. It all fired up on Thursday afternoon and was on the rolling road for 5 hours Thursday night and 3 hours Friday morning.
It saw 104BHP at just 3000rpm and peaked at 179bhp/180lb's Torque at 11.5 PSi.
Now for the bad news........Those figures where based on 3 & 1/2 Cylinders!!!! Nm 2 Cylinder was at 50% Compression and was causeing the Oil Breather to bellow out clouds of white smoke. We're 90% sure the Piston has a crank in it which is causing blow by.

I did get to take the car for a spin on the road for a few minutes and lets just say it is one hell of a lot quicker and more responsive than before!!!

So its back to the workshop, I will be stripping the engine back down this week (For the 3rd time) to put new Pistons in it. Im not surprised the piston gave way as it has ?23 Hepalite Pistons in it at the moment.

On the plus side I may have found some low compression Mahle Pistons which should fit for just ?40 each. If these do work I will be able to run one head gasket and more boost which should easily see me past the 200bhp mark..............

By the way, that 179BHP was also with the Injectors maxed out as I didn't have enough fuel pressure. So once thats sorted i'll also have a bit more fuel to play with.

All in all things are looking good, its certainly capable of a more.......How much more we'll have to see. I'll post some pics of it all very soon, including ones on the RR with it spitting flames!!! (Its did that a lot) :D

[cmatty]

Very Nice 179bhp/180lb at only 11.5 psi. Also how did you get the gti throttle body to fit and what low comp pistons are you gonna use? I made 131bhp at the wheels at Novatech's rolling road a few weeks ago. Not bad considering it was a very hot day. It seems to me that dithcing the air flow meter has freed load of free bhp :D . Can't wait to see pics of spitting flames.

[NovaNeil]

The Throttle body was nearly a straight fit :) The only difficult bit was making the throttle cable fit, I had to cut the original connector off, then crimp a connector to the end with some extra cable (Because it needed to be longer) then crimp another connector at the end to hold it it place on the throttle body. Also the throttle body is a lot shorter (25-40mm shorter) so I had to use a piece of Samco to join it up.

According to the Mahle Piston Catalogue, there's a Piston designed for an Astra 1.6 engine with the same Statistics as the E16SE engine (GTE, Early GSi). ie, same Gudgin pin size, same crank length/stroke etc. But it has a Compression ratio of 9: something whereas as our engine standard is 10: something. Fingers crossed i'll be able to use these......... Just got to do a bit more homework to check that they will fit first before I buy.
I haven't got the book with me at the moment but when I have i'll write all the relevant bits up on this forum.

[cmatty]

Neil just read your driveshaft post. Is max power at 5700rpm due to the turbo running out of puff or your cam timing because mine peaks at 5500rpm because I am thinking in getting a vernier pulley and a reprofiled cam for little overlap and high lift.

[NovaNeil]

Yeah I think its down to the boost tailing off after 5700rpm. We took it to 6400rpm just to check that it wasn't a flat spot but it definetely dies after 5700.

[carnoisseurcraig]

sorry to bring this up again boys.

I have a 1400 16v corsa turbo.

Im needing to install the 5th injector. I have the courtenay micro pish but till i can afford DTA this will have to do.

Have you guys had no problems with the set up you have.

Can some one explain in detail how there own setup is done.

Im needing this car on the road today so if someone can do that for me today il post them up summin i have in the shop.

I think you can guess by my username what shop i have.

[CRST500]

Fest,

Intercooler - remember, the bigger the intercooler the better

Chris

erm...not so my friend.
the better the efficiency, the better the intercooler.
larger intercoolers give more lag.

the ideal intercooler would hve the smallest volume with highest efficiency

[Chris_W]

Fest,

Intercooler - remember, the bigger the intercooler the better

Chris

erm...not so my friend.
the better the efficiency, the better the intercooler.
larger intercoolers give more lag.

the ideal intercooler would hve the smallest volume with highest efficiency

Yeah I agree, but there's a few more points to consider, like location aswell. Sometimes it's worth the trade off of having a bigger intercooler and slightly longer pipe run, to locate it in better air, than having a smaller intercooler with short pipe run, but getting heak soak from the rad and turbo, which is what we were talking about at the time.

Chris

[NovaNeil]

I would defo agree that the bigger the intercooler the better! Yes you get more lag, but you get cooler more denser air which means two things.....
1) more Power
2) Safer running as theres less chance of detonation

So The bigger the intercooler the better in my book! :D

Lags lag....... its like sh*t..... it just happens and you live with it! :lol:

[James1]

Lags lag....... its like sh*t..... it just happens and you live with it!

Now I know this is going to sound abit silly but why do you not look into an ALS(Anti Lag System) or you could just learn to left foot break :twisted: .

Just a Thought

James

[Chris_W]

Anti-Lag systems are something for the rally teams, or showing off. you can't use them all the time as they kill the turbos and exhaust systems. Your average WRC car will bin it's turbo and exhaust after one rally, but these teams have a budget of millions, whereas, with the exception of Rick, the rest of us nova owners don't have that kind of money to throw about ;)

Chris

[NovaNeil]

Yeah... Plus, the lag is so minimal on a 1.6 with T2 you don't need anti lag..... Having said that, I have mine mapped to over fuel at high rpm when the throttle postion is closed (changing gear)... This was mostly done for the Noise (burbing and flames inbetween gear changes :D ) but it also acts as a kind of Anti lag, because the extra unburn't fuel keeps the Turbo spinning. But if you do it too extreme you'll kill the Turbo in no time like Chris said.

[James1]

I take it your fuel doesn't really last that long with the over fueling. It was just a surgestion :D I didn't realise that it wore out the turbo that much. Yes it would be nice to have that much money but some people do have to live in the real world. :roll:

[Ste_Nova]

engine stand has arrived today so progress can start on this

i will be giving a full run through of the turboing... and i expect help doing it also :lol:

http://uploader.co.uk/images/d78a65dd6230340a2e6e1a556e75e00b

[cmatty]

Ste what ecu does that engine have, Bosch or Siemens?

[Aragorn]

GM Multec

its a C16SE

[cmatty]

Is that the one which uses a Air Mass Meter and a Map Sensor? So what happens when the Map Sensor senses boost and not vacuum? Would the engine management light turn on?

[Ste_Nova]

dunno :lol:n i can't see an amm only the map...

i'm gonna use the haynes and label each of the sensors