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View Full Version : Nova GTE race car - Tuning adivce and E16SE engine needed please!



kbf71
02-01-09, 02:04 PM
I race a 1.6i GTE in the 750MC Stock Hatch championship. Despite the word "stock" in the name, I assure you it is a reputable circuit racing championship! All cars (except Citroen C2 VTS) have to be either 1.6l 8v or 1.4l 16v, and using the standard engine for the model. All cars have to have standard bodywork and all glass (car alrady meets the wieght limit for the series so theres no real need for any lightening), as well as standard wheels (size and style). I have 4 14" SR alloys on the car, and the championship rules also dictate the tyre make and size (Yokohama A048R, M Compound, 185,60,14). Suspension can be uprated and that is already done on my car - I just need to get the engine sorted...
Oh yeah, and Camshaft is specified by the club! Standard Gearbox (and ratios) must be used!

Summary: I need to build a sh1thot E16SE that falls within the Championship's restrictive rules...


Here they are:

5.7: ENGINE:
The only modifications permitted to engines are
those listed in paragraph 1 (Modifications Permitted) below; if the
following texts do not clearly specify that you can do it, you
should work on the principle that you cannot. It is the
competitor’s responsibility to ensure that no prohibited
modifications have been carried out, if they are using an engine
not assembled by them.

1. Modifications Permitted:
It is permitted to reclaim engine blocks by fitting liners or by reboring
up to 0.5mm oversize using standard-pattern pistons only.
Replacement of valves, valve guides and valve seats with parts of
standard pattern and material. With the exception of cars listed in
6.3 of these regulations, all cars must use the camshaft specified by
the manufacturer of their vehicle as being the standard part for the
make & model of car being raced.
ECU is free and re mapping of the ignition and fuelling is
permitted. However no additional sensors can be added.

2. Modifications Prohibited:
Any other than those permitted in 5.7.1. The camshaft must remain
entirely unmodified; it is not permitted to regrind or reprofile or
grind from blanks. The standard cambelt cover/s must be retained.
Valve seat angles may not be changed; if the manufacturer
standard was single angle this must be retained with the
manufacturer’s minimum width. Any multi-angle seats must be as
manufacturer’s specification in any repair practice.
3. Location: Position and mounting method must be standard for
the model being raced. No additional engine/transmission supports
may be fitted.
4. Oil/Water cooling: Water radiators must remain standard in
design and position with no additional air ducting. Oil coolers are permitted if standard for the model being raced, but must be fitted in the standard
position; if none is fitted as standard an oil cooler may be fitted
within the overall periphery of the engine bay; no additional air
ducts are permitted. Internal baffles may be fitted to the standard
sump; the sump oil pick-up pipe may be modified.
5. Induction Systems: The complete standard induction system
must be retained in its entirety (see note in 1. Modifications
permitted, above); it is not permitted to add any covering,
whether heat-reflective/heat-resistant or not, to the inside or
outside of any part of the induction system. Air filter elements may
be removed or replaced by non-standard filter elements inside the
standard casing. Carburettor jets / fuel injectors may be changed;
choke flaps on carburettors and butterfly damper weight on throttle
bodies may be removed. No other modifications are permitted. The
crankcase breather may vent direct to a catch tank and any holes in
the air filter housing associated with the breather system may be
blanked off. If the vehicle is fitted with a ‘fly by wire’ (motorised) throttle this may be removed and replaced by a cable/ type actuation this may use a non standard throttle pedal.
6. Exhaust systems: Exhaust systems must exit at the rear of
the vehicle. Exhaust systems may not pass through the
driver/passenger compartment. Standard exhaust manifold must be
retained and may not be modified by the removal of material. The
remainder of the exhaust system including silencer is free but no
part of the manifold, piping or silencer may have any covering or
lagging, whether heat resistant, heat reflective or not.
All vehicles except those running in class B must be fitted
with a catalytic converter in the exhaust system. Close
coupled (in manifold) catalysts may be removed and
replaced with a catalytic converter fitted in the exhaust
system.
7. Ignition systems: The ignition system is free but no additional
sensors may be fitted. The ECU is free and re mapping of the
ignition and fuelling is permitted. However no additional
sensors can be added.
8. Fuel delivery systems: It is permissible to replace only the
fuel pump, fuel lines, and filter with non-standard items. Fuel
pressure valves are free, for both fuel-injected and carburetted
cars. Full regs here: EDIT(i cant upload links yet!)


So advice is more than welcome. I have an engine in the car already. Its pretty strong, but not strong enough (and it is completely standard!). So I need to have about 120bhp at the wheels to be truely competitive, but any gains will be good! Even if I only get upto 110bhp I will have a better chance! The car is capable of running top-20 in a series where 60-something is the norm, and most of the cars are evil Citroen Saxo VTRs! :mad:

Thankyou for reading so far. Not much left to go! ;)

First off I need a E16SE engine. I only want to spend around £100 max as a lot of parts are going to be replaced. If anyone can help me out let me know :) I am also running a standard exhaust setup, but looking to go to a 2.25" system. Any ideas?

I intend to race on with my current motor whilst builing a new one to replace the one I have. So I am willing to wait for the right deals to come up.

HELP ME BEAT THE FRENCH CARS! :D

Cheers,
Pip.

Lee
02-01-09, 02:20 PM
TBH those are pretty restrictive regs, and Im afraid your going to be way off 120bhp at the wheels. You would need headwork, a cam and some twin 40's to get near that mark.

I see you are allowed a remap but I can understand that as it will give you fook all in the way of power gain.

kbf71
02-01-09, 02:31 PM
Well most people seem to ignore the bit that says "if the
following texts do not clearly specify that you can do it, you
should work on the principle that you cannot." if some of the bhp numbers elsewhere in the field are to be believed! I'd gloss over that and try again haha!!

I have had some advice from a friend with my studies so far. All suggestions lead to good old fashioned tuning! Recon'd injectors (bigger injectors? is it worth it?), using the oversize allowance (its only 0.5mm so Im not convinced the difference will justify the expense), general tweeking of airflow meter, fitting a Fuel Pressure Regulator (which I have in the shed already :D), lightening flywheel, etc...

If anyone knows a little about the benefits of each tweek I would love it if they would explain, as this is all a little new to me :)

If I can find any extra power I will be very happy - but I am a recent graduate working on a teeny-weeny budget so nothing too extreme please! I don't want to spend anymore than £500 to get it all done.

tookie
02-01-09, 02:34 PM
only things i can think of is skimming down the cam carrier to get abit more out of the standard cam and maybe raising the compression slightly and a re-map or some sort of aftermarket ecu?

kbf71
02-01-09, 02:38 PM
The cam isn't standard (i don't think :confused:). The Nova's have to use a Kent Cam pt number:Kent Cams: KC750SE16

Ok so maybe to add another direction here...

What about ways I can make the most of the current power. What about additives (fuel, oil, coolant)

Lee
02-01-09, 02:59 PM
I have had some advice from a friend with my studies so far. All suggestions lead to good old fashioned tuning! Recon'd injectors (bigger injectors? is it worth it?), using the oversize allowance (its only 0.5mm so Im not convinced the difference will justify the expense), general tweeking of airflow meter, fitting a Fuel Pressure Regulator (which I have in the shed already :D), lightening flywheel, etc...

If anyone knows a little about the benefits of each tweek I would love it if they would explain, as this is all a little new to me :)

If I can find any extra power I will be very happy - but I am a recent graduate working on a teeny-weeny budget so nothing too extreme please! I don't want to spend anymore than £500 to get it all done.
Bigger injectors will do nothing but flood the engine, making it worse, unless you can flow more air as well, which means a cam, modifying the inlet, and gas flowing the head.

The oversize allowance is there purely to allow a rebore on old blocks, but you will retain the standard pistons and just use larger diameter rings or sleeve the bores depending on the severity, so there are no gains to be had there.

Tweeking the airflow meter? Again, that all comes under the remap remit, and will give you next to no gains.

A modded FPR will see gains when added to other mods, much like the bigger injectors, but on its own its pissing in the wind im afraid.

A lightened flywheel is the best suggestion if its allowed, it will make the engine revvier and in a light car like a Nova it makes a lot of difference.

But as I said before, your going to still be way off your 120bhp atw figure im afraid, that equates to approx 140bhp atf and weve only seen figures like that from 1.6 8v's where they've had a nice big wallet thrown at them and the injection system thrown away.

But nothing gets back more missing horses than a damn good service, so yeah, clean injectors, new dizzy, leads, plugs etc will probably give you more gains than most others.

Chop as much weight out of it as you can as well!

kbf71
02-01-09, 03:10 PM
Cheers Lee! The car sits at 840kg (with driver) and the min weight is 836kg so apart from cutting weight and redistributing, I can't find any more there!
Unless driver can lose a few kilos ;)

120bhp is optimistic (but as I said, some of the Saxos get way more than that! Think Saxo's are 925kg min weight...) but i'll do anything i can before the money dries up. I'm skipping races to get the car ship-shape!
So how light can you go with the flywheel before it starts getting worse again?

I am going to get the injectors cleaned up on my current engine and I am hoping to get another exhaust. I have been advised to go with a 2.25" single box system as twin box can be restrictive - but i really have no idea with exhausts!

EDIT: I do have access to cheap rolling road setup, so i want to get as many bits in place before i go so I get the car setup as well as it can!

Mike
02-01-09, 03:12 PM
Basically chap your restriced like funk.

In this situation your best option to NOT look at overall hp, but look into a nice free reving setup. Lightened fly, L&B Bottom end, de-seamed rods and the like.

I say forgot the power as the mods you'd need to do to get a GTE engine to about 120bhp will put you way out your regs, therefore the aforementioned is your only viable option left to you.

kbf71
02-01-09, 03:33 PM
Basically chap your restriced like funk.

In this situation your best option to NOT look at overall hp, but look into a nice free reving setup. Lightened fly, L&B Bottom end, de-seamed rods and the like.
Ok cheers mate. (hey look I found the quote button! Now it just looks like I was ignoring everyone from before, which is not the case! :roll:) As I said, there isn't a minimum specified weight for the flywheel on Nova's (although there is on everything else lol) so I guess thats an area I can exploit! That is the challenge really - finding gaps in the regs that you can interpret your own way haha!
How light can you go with a flywheel before it stops becoming beneficial??

So what about ECU/remapping. What are my options? I've been on the superchips website and their predictor thing says a 6bhp increase - but i've also heard that superchips aren't as good as they claim. Is the standard ECU a bit too basic for remapping?

How much do you think Lightening and balancing (i assume thats what L&B means :confused:) the bottom end would set me back, and what are the benefits?

I've never heard of de-seamed rods. Expalination?

Adam
02-01-09, 03:47 PM
Looking at those rules, its basically saying a standard engine.
Are you allowed an aftermarket ecu setup?

Theres pretty much nothing you can do to increase power output, with those strict rules. To get good power from these engines you need a 290-300deg cam, headwork, good exhaust manifold,aftermarket ecu or carbs, and then rev it to about 7000-7500rpm. You can get 150bhp through the standard inlet and throttle body.

Mike
02-01-09, 03:49 PM
Any specific rules with regards to a turbo conversion though?

Adam
02-01-09, 03:53 PM
If they wont even let you change a sensor for the engine management, i highly doubt they'll let you slip a T3 on there Mike! lol lol lol

Mike
02-01-09, 03:55 PM
If they wont even let you change a sensor for the engine management, i highly doubt they'll let you slip a T3 on there Mike! lol lol lol

Ah pants :( worth a try though. All the guys i know bend the rules something kronic though, aftermarket cams, altered gear ratios, diffs etc etc.

Its very very rarley that a scruitineer will rip an engine apart to check unless your blatently faster then everyone else!

Adam
02-01-09, 03:58 PM
A reground std cam would be hard to spot ;)
Ok its not going give huge gains, but every bit helps with rules as tight as those.

Mike
02-01-09, 03:59 PM
Head skim? Use a crank from another engine (alter stroke - higher comp?)?

draper
02-01-09, 04:06 PM
tbh id start over with a 106/saxo, as you say they are much better equipped to be competitive with those regs

kbf71
02-01-09, 04:35 PM
Cams are off limits, but headwork, ECUs, exhausts + manifolds upto Group N level seem to be the norm for most competitors. And as I said, the Nova doesn't have a specified flywheel weight like all the other types in the series.

Cars involved:
Saxo VTR
C2 VTS (only 1.6 16v car allowed, penalised by extra weight)
106 Rallye/XSI
205 GTI
Corsa (1.4 16v)
Nova GTE/GSI
Swift 1.3 16v GTi
Fiesta XR2
Fiesta XR2i
Metro GTi
(others are allowed but not used)

Its slightly equalised by each model having different weight limits. Nova is 836kg compared to 1050kg with the C2. The championship is really close so even if I can only get small gains but they all add up! How much would anyone recommend to have skimmed off the head?

Welsh Dan
02-01-09, 04:38 PM
It might be worth selling your GTE and getting a GSI so that you can use a C16SE, with a CAT they give the same power as an E16SE but you should be able to take the CAT off. I'd get the standard cam reground, the cam carrier skimmed for 'flatness' (more lift), the head skimmed for 'flatness' (more compression), give the whole thing a good service and a live fuel+ignition map on whatever management fits the bill. IIRC the C16SE has a crank sensory and MAP/MAF sensor so it should support aftermarket management.

Are 14" steelies lighter than 3 spokes? If they are then use those.

Speaking of mapping, do you have to use a certain fuel? ;)


The championship is really close so even if I can only get small gains but they all add up! How much would anyone recommend to have skimmed off the head?

That depends on valve clearances and what compression ratio you want to run. The more you take off the more likely it is that you'll need to notch the pistons.

garyc
02-01-09, 07:01 PM
My mate raced in this a couple of years ago and it was a bottomless pit of money. If you want the most from what you have here is what I would do:

full engine rebuild inc balance the bottom end, rebore to max, find the lightest replacement pistons eg AE\ KS etc. Deck the block (check the technical data as pistons may be allowed to be proud of the block). Skim the head by a decent amount (you'll be surprised how much you have to take off to up the CR by a decent amount) or run a C14SE head. Clean the head up so its like new, and do 3 angle valve seats, fit new cam and running gear. Fit an MBE system and get it mapped. Fit a 3.9 diff to the box if has a 3.7 diff. fit a decent exhasut system. Fit an 82 degree thermostat and a decent radiator, maybe an oil cooler too. Run on Mobil 0-40.

Fit decent suspension with some neg camber on the front. Get it all laser tracked then corner weighted.

_JH_
02-01-09, 09:50 PM
Very few people on here have any experience of competition, let alone your race series, you are best off speaking to a scrutineer.

They are often the most helpful people when it comes to improving your chances. They have nothing to hide as they are not your competitors, and by committing to scrutineering they obviously have a great interest in the series, and want to help it continue.

Kent Cams may also be of help, after all you have/will be buying one of their control cams for the series, so they may have some tips for you.

Good luck with it, sounds like a hard nut to crack.

mowgli
02-01-09, 10:44 PM
my Brother sponsored a lad a few years back in stock hatch who had a 205. he paid £3k to get a 'standard' engine built that gave about 135hp. the trick to build a standard engine is to find all of the gm tech data on that engine, & work out the tolerances that are allowed, so that a maximum tolerance on one measurement might be better & a small one on another will be better etc. certain model years had a better head, & make a very good bitser of an engine from the bits. the look at whether or not you can run an electric water pump to save power. a really good way of sneaking a bit of extra power is to switch off the alternator. it sounds daft, but the car will run for 20miles on a well charged battery without the need for the alternator to sap a few hp.

remember this, the front runners are people who have been racing for years, have 5 figure budgets & go testing. if you break into the top 20 you will need to be doing very well indeed.

kbf71
03-01-09, 01:51 PM
Lots of excellent advice here guys! I didn't realise the forum was going to be so rapid responce, so thankyou very much!

I have been racing the car since July '08 (Bought it race-ready as it has been in the Championship since 2005) and I am already on the fringes of the top 20. The championship allows all cars to compete for overall honours, but any car registered for the road before Jan '92 is also eligable for Class B honours. I can run happily in the top 10, often top 5 in the class on the standard motor in that class :) A bit more power would see me in contention to win the class, and would put me in a position to ruffle some feathers in the "5 figure budget" category ;)

The suspension setup is sound already. Adjustable Koni dampers with 3 degrees neg cam on the front, 320lb front springs and 600lb rear. Need to check all the components after a little scrape with a Honda Accord when I entered one-off in an endurance race last year though...

One of my jobs (sigh - tis not a cheap sport!) is in a bar, and last night we were visited by a reputable tuning specialist (can i mention names? :confused:) would suggested that he could work wonders on my car if I turned up at his garage with just a new manifold and a UniChip (b-version) ECU. Does anyone have any experience with a UniChip?

garyc
03-01-09, 05:46 PM
My mate had a uni chip on his 106, which got replaced with an MBE.