View Full Version : More power vs Improving handling/grip
As above really.
Car will see road/track/1-4mile use
Got a set of bodies and inlet to fit the xe(still need management/mapping), but ive been thinking of selling them on and using the money to improve the cars handling/grip instead.
So need a few opinions of whether stay with a pretty much standard 20xe(bar oversized manifold etc, 150-155bhp), and then get a LSD to improve grip/handling.
OR
keep the std diff etc, and get the bodies on and aim for about 180hp, which may not work amazingly on track/ 1/4s with just a std open diff?
Both have good points/bad points......
Opinions
:confused:
(btw the xe will be getting fitted sometime, just in no rush atm as theres not much really going on until after new year/xmas lol )
dhdev (Oli)
10-12-08, 05:22 PM
The question is do you enjoy straight line driving or going round bends, wait you've already made that decision...:p
Both lol
So a diff'd big block is the best choice? :p
Id need bodies/management on the small block to have pace matching a standard 20xe.
ANYWAYS, this aint a big/small block debate, yet lol
dhdev (Oli)
10-12-08, 05:31 PM
Yeah go for the diff. One of the best mods I've ever done. :thumb:
IF/When i get the trophy, one of the first mods ill be doing is a diff
For all round speed a well sorted chassis far out weighs power imo. My old grey thing proved that as it was quick for what it was, but on track it stepped it up a level (well in my eyes anyway :p ). Even with my new build, i may have had to jump up an engine size, but the overall power wont be massively different, i'm just changing the chassis dynamics in the search for more grip and grin factor all be it still on a budget in true form lol lol
I think a diff etc is winning at the minute.
Will cost less overall, and keeping the std xe inlet system means i wont have issues with noise limits, plus everything on the engine is cheap to replace should bits break....
And will save cash by not having to buy a standalone ecu and getting that mapped etc.
Hmm
dhdev (Oli)
10-12-08, 06:27 PM
Use the money saved on bodies etc for an ally block ;)
I think a diff etc is winning at the minute.
Will cost less overall, and keeping the std xe inlet system means i wont have issues with noise limits, plus everything on the engine is cheap to replace should bits break....
And will save cash by not having to buy a standalone ecu and getting that mapped etc.
Hmm
good choice:thumb:
diff is a must have when cornering an ex'd nova. too much tyre smoke otherwise lol
Pistol Pete
10-12-08, 07:03 PM
I myself would sort the handling first then increase the power.
A diff sounds like a worthwhile investment! Having power is good and fun, but a waste if you can put it down!
As the Pirelli ad used to say: Power is nothing without control! lol
Use the money saved on bodies etc for an ally block ;)
Sod that.
You weight saving lunatic :p lol
On the look for a 2nd hand diff then, LSD or Plate?
As said, Diff is the way to go. You can have all the power in the world buts its useless when your cars gonna spin its face off everytime you plant it chap.
plate if you want ultimate but with maintenance every 3-5kmiles
helical for ease of use/maintenance
auzzy-b
10-12-08, 07:12 PM
DIFF all the way!! agility first you'll be faster round the tracks...as top gear prooved the other week, no one see the ZONDA wup the BUGATTI'S shiny white butt.
I like to know when something will happen... personally with an ATB you dont get predictability.
A plate is with you all the time and you know how hard its working etc so you can work with it to do the do... ATB's just dont seem to offer that level of progressiveness etc
Is a plate not more of either "Off or On" ?
Is there no option for both? lol
I would probably say diff, you can always upgrade power later on anyway if you wanted. And you will want to :)
No theres no option for both atm lol
As said, Diff is the way to go. You can have all the power in the world buts its useless when your cars gonna spin its face off everytime you plant it chap.
Just what i thought when i read the thread title.
chris gsi
10-12-08, 07:45 PM
i would go with the diff as i only have a standard engine and my goes around a track well enough to pass a lot off things and a diff is on my next to get list
ime plates are nice and progressive (its on all the time but ramps in harder progressively) where as ATB's are either off or on (me no likey)
Okies
Who sells plate diffs? any links?
ime plates are nice and progressive (its on all the time but ramps in harder progressively) where as ATB's are either off or on (me no likey)
Your a mincer though.
Hmm, i spotted a ATB F20 for sale, tempted :D
dhdev (Oli)
10-12-08, 08:55 PM
I've found the exact opposite to what stuart's said. I find my ATB very progressive, always there when I need it, but not in an obtrusive manner. I've driven a couple of plate diffed cars and found them very hard work and very on/off.
Hmmm, conflicting opinions here
I've found the exact opposite to what stuart's said. I find my ATB very progressive, always there when I need it, but not in an obtrusive manner. I've driven a couple of plate diffed cars and found them very hard work and very on/off.
Indeed:thumb:
But like I said Stu's a mincer so we can ignore him.
dhdev (Oli)
10-12-08, 08:59 PM
I remember trying out Olly H's nova and thinking to myself holy cow these big-blocks truley are the most understeery cars on the planet, as it happens it was because I was lifting off and the diff was trying to make it go straight :tard: You have to keep your foot in to get it to turn.
peester
10-12-08, 09:03 PM
good thread this, nice n lehmans (sp) terms..
obviously i am no mincer like stu lol but i to prefer the plate diff for exactly the same reasons, also i know of 2 other people who were converted when it came to the crunch and the need for a plate diff, my previous plate diff now lives in CP's car (was very much a quaife man until he saw the light ;) ) and Chris Tunnicliffes plate diff which he converted across to from a quiafe, which will live on in my new build.
Lets not forget plate diffs get setup in different ways so its not as easy to compare like for like in different cars as it is with quaife items.
So are both perfectly fine for road use too???
well i thought so, as mine was used as a daily car for over a year, unsure if anyone else can comment on a plate diff for the same as most tend to be track babies only ;)
Stop listening to these mincers.
MORE POWER FTW! You're not a man unless you're spinning the hell out of the inside wheel :)
lol lol
You sound like Clarkson
On a serious note, you realy need to try both before you can decide as its horses for courses. I prefer the ATB myself.
so thats it settled
gay people like ATB's and food lovers like plate diffs (possibly because food comes on plates lol)
whats the difference between an ATB and a plate diff, i may know them by different names? Is it a simple explanation or should I go in search of google explanations and diagrams and the like? lol
tom reid
10-12-08, 10:31 PM
I know it's not on your options list, but have you thought about changing the overall gearing.
Keep the small block engine and get a 4.1 or 4.5 CWP, that will really liven the car up, especially if you have a plate diff as well, will work really well on track days.
trackdaynova
10-12-08, 10:55 PM
Adam - fancy swapping cars for a session on Sunday?
Then you won't only feel highish big block power, you'll feel a plate diff and straight cut box :cool:
Would need a camcorder in both cars :D
And I can pretend to be Oli for a session, and drive a toy engined car lol
spanishfly
10-12-08, 11:00 PM
A diff is an awesome modification one of the best. I had the tbs on my engine before the diff, it was a case of coming on the power later and bringing it in slowly. With the diff you can bring it in alot sooner and harsher.
As you got the bodies I would keep them, not worth selling now as you'll want them again soon. Get some management when you can, first try get a 2nd hand F20 for around £300 with a diff already in:D
trackdaynova
10-12-08, 11:02 PM
I know of an F20 with a Quaife gAyTB for £350 if you're interested, with original receipts etc :thumb:
spanishfly
10-12-08, 11:04 PM
I will more likely be going plate diff when I get my SCCR, however the ATB will be going in the coupe.
trackdaynova
10-12-08, 11:06 PM
That message was for Adam, as I knew you have an ATB already.
I know of an SCCR too going too if interested?
Rick Draper
10-12-08, 11:27 PM
I dont like the way my ATB felt. Never inspired much confidence tbh.
Adam, is your car caged or fully stitch welded?
whats the difference between an ATB and a plate diff, i may know them by different names? Is it a simple explanation or should I go in search of google explanations and diagrams and the like? lol
ATB stands for 'Automatic Torque Biasing'. Essentially, it will behave like a normal open diff until you apply power, the more power you apply, the more the diff will lock up. This is why its really the best choice for a road car because you can drive it easier at low speeds. Its also 'fit and forget' as it requires no servicing.
A plate diff can be set to a desired amount of lock, and it will keep that setting no matter what, so at low speeds it will grauch, and it will be almost impossible to push around corners lol. It also needs servicing every once in a while.
Ive heard some people say ATB's are snatchy, and some say plate diffs are snatchy. Some like one, some like the other. Thats why you really need to try both before you choose :)
Big_Chap
11-12-08, 09:01 AM
A diff is an awesome modification one of the best. I had the tbs on
my engine before the diff, it was a case of coming on the power later and bringing it in slowly. With the diff you can bring it in alot sooner and harsher.
As you got the bodies I would keep them, not worth selling now as you'll want them again soon. Get some management when you can, first try get a 2nd hand F20 for around £300 with a diff already in:D
^^^:cool:
I have both but unlike spanishfly I went from cam'd xe to tb'd with large manifold & atb diff so it was a bit difficult to see exactly how much difference each mod would have made seperate, I've also not been on track since it was standard.
If it's possible for you to do it, it be tempted to track it as standard, see how it goes and take it from there, if not then save a bit longer, get 2nd hand diff'd f20 and then save a bit more for management & setup!
Cheers Lee, Think I've come across the plate as a clutch pack LSD in race sims etc, thought it might since clutch=plates. ATB is sort of familiar i think, bour 2-3 years ago when i was racing 1/8ths they started using Torsen diffs which sound very similar. Cheers for the simple explanations tho :thumb:
i can see the plate being much easier for the more agressive and the ATB for the smoother driver myself, since the ATB on full whack is just gonna lock all of a sudden, whereas as the plate might slip a bit first? Might help Adam on his first impressions should he choose to trust my newly informed opinion lol
Interesting thread :) Seem a diff is the way forward, but which one is like the argument about a front ARB one an XE...
A diff is the best mid I've ever done.
Cheers Lee, Think I've come across the plate as a clutch pack LSD in race sims etc, thought it might since clutch=plates. ATB is sort of familiar i think, bour 2-3 years ago when i was racing 1/8ths they started using Torsen diffs which sound very similar. Cheers for the simple explanations tho :thumb:
i can see the plate being much easier for the more agressive and the ATB for the smoother driver myself, since the ATB on full whack is just gonna lock all of a sudden, whereas as the plate might slip a bit first? Might help Adam on his first impressions should he choose to trust my newly informed opinion lol
yes the ATB is a Torsen style diff
craig green
11-12-08, 01:10 PM
Though the logic sounds a bit wrong. I think you should fit the bog-block & TB's, then save up for the diff.
If it were me I'd get the Tran-X plate diff. After speaking with my local rallyshop chap, he practically sold me on it.
If it were me I'd get the Tran-X plate diff. After speaking with my local rallyshop chap, he practically sold me on it.
As I said earlier, I would be wary of choosing which diff to go for purely on word of mouth. Just because he works in a rally shop doesnt mean he knows your style of driving, or how you personally like a car to behave.
One mans gold is another mans poison.
Personally, going from Integra experience
I find a plate diff too much for the road, far to aggressive, absolute dream on track
Vice versa with a Torsen diff (TORque SENsing)
On the road, nice and progressive, locks nicely, not snappy at ll
On the track, still nice and smooth, but not aggresive as i like them to be
Adam - fancy swapping cars for a session on Sunday?
Then you won't only feel highish big block power, you'll feel a plate diff and straight cut box :cool:
Would need a camcorder in both cars :D
And I can pretend to be Oli for a session, and drive a toy engined car lol
Are you serious??? :eek:
I dont know if id trust myself with your car in my hands! lol
Jim-No mate, the car has no cage and isnt stitch welded anywhere(will be welded when the xe goes in)
craig green
11-12-08, 05:26 PM
As I said earlier, I would be wary of choosing which diff to go for purely on word of mouth. Just because he works in a rally shop doesnt mean he knows your style of driving, or how you personally like a car to behave.
One mans gold is another mans poison.
Your not wrong. Chances are if someone spent £500+ on anything, thay are going to tell you its the sh*t anyway, so you never really get an honest opinion. Though I reckon I'd struggle not to be biased over something I spent That sort of money on!
scott.parker
11-12-08, 06:21 PM
Hummm...
I'm yet to really get to see what.or how the ATB diff in mine feels,or dose on track when pushed, Ive drove the car on 1/4 and TBF it didn't really feel like it was doing anything lol the car felt the same,so i cant say either way,but i would go with what others say,keep the TB's and save for the diff,best idea i think! i couldn't have my car without them now as i would think the id get bored with no noise...
Scott
Jim-No mate, the car has no cage and isnt stitch welded anywhere(will be welded when the xe goes in)
If it were me, I'd get the car caged and stitch welded before doing the diff and then play around with the car's geometry so that you feel confident when driving it.
The diff choice is tricky as everyone has an opinion and a different driving style. Before I got my ATB fitted the car drove relatively well. After fitting it, nothing really changed except that knowing a diff was fitted gave me more confidence going into bends. I then had the car geometry set up by a tuning firm thinking it would transform the car again...it did, but not to my taste. So fitting a diff isn't necessarily going to have as big an impact as getting the car set up to suit your driving style.
BTW, the other difference between plate and ATB diffs that no ones told you about is that the plate diffs need to be stripped down and reconditioned every year or x miles, whereas the ATB is just a plug and play diff.
Jim
BTW, the other difference between plate and ATB diffs that no ones told you about is that the plate diffs need to be stripped down and reconditioned every year or x miles, whereas the ATB is just a plug and play diff.
Jim
I told him about that two pages ago, keep up ffs lol
Rick Draper
11-12-08, 08:01 PM
If i was you i would fit the TB's and other stuff that you have then think about a diff later on. Its not a hard swop and you have iirc loads of the stuff for fitting the TB's already?
trackdaynova
11-12-08, 08:23 PM
benefit of having a 'majority of' track car only, is that to use those thousands of miles up on track, it'll take a fair few years anyway :D
I told him about that two pages ago, keep up ffs lol
I don't read what you say though...do'h :wtf: ;)
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