The great antiroll bar debate

[Dan]

I'm sure cp or mc will prob explain this better but this subject has sprung up again as i have recently removed mine after being told time after time by lads that tarmac rally to get rid of it to benefit from more traction when cornering etc etc. I can confirm that it has made a hell of a difference to my car, and after speaking to cp who was told the same and tried after i did has said similar.

We do run similar shells i.e inch for inch welded bays, strut braces and full cages, so the shell is alot tighter than standard anyway. Plus we have poly bushes right through and him coil overs and myself billies so hard suspension. These factors i think have alot to do with why the removal was better as understeer was a bitch before hand, the cars didnt feel overly brilliant when driving sharp bends on rough roads due to traction loss and skittish behaviour, the slight roll u gain from removing it makes the car feel alot securer and does help with grip/drivability.

On a standard/standardish car it would probably be wise to leave them on as others have tried in the past and not really said if it made a huge difference. From what i gather (which is prob wrong) they were introduced to the slightly sportier models to induce understeer to make them safer to drive for the purchasers due to extra power, suspension setups etc etc due to understeer being more controlable than oversteer in a front wheel dive car. Obviously when the shell is rock solid after being sorted and with hard susp etc etc there is no give in the chassis/suspension so understeer would be increased as there is no lean at all and also if u hit a bump and one wheel gets hit into the arch the other would follow suit and both wheels would loose contact with the ground, but with the removal of the anti roll bar the one side doesnt get lifted as much so has more contact with the tarmac

The more experience you have of track use :wink: like mc or cp etc or similar you will understand how the car fully functions and will be able to understand what this modification does, as it can be counter productive without proper control. Personally i feel that more than just suspension modifications are useful when doing this as the shell's stiffness might be taken into account but thats just my opinion :?

[Stuart]

mines std car. added ARB, this caused major understeer and skittish behavour. Took it off and the car is good again, a nice feeling of what the car is doing

[Ste_Nova]

i never ran one on my 2.0 16v

[rgv_stu]

i have seen a few golf gti track cars run with no ARB in order to eliminate some understeer

[Matt Finary]

Mine is seam weld, a cage, front and rear strut brace.
Do you think I shouldn't bother to refit the ARB.

Matt :)

[Rick Draper]

I cud tell you exactly what it does and the effects it has but i dont want to confuse you southeners! lmfmo Rick

[Aragorn]

so what about more standard cars?? - as far as i can see fomr here everyone is running caged up cars which are gonna be totally solid

i fitted one from a GTE to my 1.2 saloon and a noticed a marked improvement in handling with the standard suspension

the only thing fitted to it now is a set of bilstein streetline dampers and -40mm springs, so is it still beneficial to have

infact - an explanation of what it does exactly would be nice rick :)

[CP]

What I feel its done to mine is freed the front up and my immediate impression was that it has become noticeably more grabby. Overall on my car i feel I have better traction over bumpy surfaces and into and out of corners. I'm not sure whether this advantage would be so evident on a smooth race track - alot will depend on the cars inherent roll in the first place I should imagine?

How any anti roll bar works is by linking (usually via the body shell) either side of the cars suspension with a bar of sprung steel. The idea is that as the car rolls down on 1 side round a corner pressure of the body downwards is counteracted via a crude "spring" secured to the other side of the car. This downward force on the side thats rolling down is in effect translated into a similar acting force on the other side. If this "spring " is secured to the body then that is used as crude lever point and the net result is that excessive roll at one side is largely ironed out by spreading the forces to the other side. The car rolls less which has profound implications to cornering.

However on a Nova the anti-roll bars are crude affairs and crucially are not secured to the body at all. This means that none of the forces generated are translated thru the body reducing its effectivenss in the 1st place. If you have an uprated suspension which has largely ironed out roll on these small light cars the suspect benefits of the roll bar come more into focus and what has been found is that all it actually does is stop the car reacting to bumps and tends to lift one of the wheels with obvious implications for traction.

[Dicko]

considering this on my car atm. lowered 45mm on gmax kit, 15s, 45 profile tyres with loadsa grip (khumo) and i get loads of understeer on roubabouts.
i usualy race a corsa sri, i kill it on the straight but on these roundabouts it flies round them and im strugling for traction. the corsa is also lowered so should be suffering from the same prob as me.

im considering taking off the front roll bar as it seems to be the front end causing all the problems!

[MC]

Right. Hmmm. well........

Mr average wants a car that is soft on his arse, but handles well and doesn't lean around corners. If you have soft suspension, it will be comfortable, but handle like poo. If you have hard suspension, it will handle well, but be a pain in the arse. Manufacturers get around this by fitting an anto roll bar.

An anti roll bar links the suspension on both sides of the car. It crudely tries to replicate whats going on one side to the other. If one side compresses, the other will too. So, going into a bend, the outside suspension will compress, and normally the inside will extend and roll will occur. With the anti roll bar fitted the outer wheel will compress, but so will the inner wheel. Depending on how strong the arb effect is, it might compress, or just not extend so much. This will reduce roll. So roll has been reduced without having to make the suspension any harder.

Now the benefits of this are less roll, making the car more stable though bends, and reducing over steer. Its a good compromise. The down side is that when you hit a bump with one wheel, the other can leave the ground. This isn't too much of a problem in a straight line, but you don't want it too happen on a bend. This will enduce understeer. Soft standard suspension undulates with the bumps, so not a problem, but fit aftermarket stuff thats rock hard and the problems begin.

Hard suspension is very unforgiving. On a smooth surface it is good, but hit bumos and the car takes off. There is no give. The antiroll bar makes things worse. It prevents the rebound of the shock working correctly and amplifies the problems seen on a standard setup. The end result is a car that is very skitish with huge amounts of understeer. Now in theory a car with decent firm suspension shouldn't suffer from body roll, therefore the anti-roll bar is not helping, in fact it is hindering. Remove it and you will have both sides working indipendently, coping with there own bumps, extending as they wish and keeping maximum surface area in contact with the ground. Understeer is reduced and the car feels more responsive.

We have tried this and it works. The car isn't chucked off line at every bump, it doesn't understeer as much and is more controlable. The coil overs fitted to CP's car prevent body roll, and as a result of taking off the arb, we can now make the front shocks even more firm.

I would emphasise that removing the anti-roll bar will only show benefit if you have good uprated suspension and you can cope with oversteer. Take it off, and allow timew to get used to it before really pushing hard.

[Dicko]

so you reckon i might see a benefit even though i dont have a strut brace or poly bushes, all i got is gmax gas shox and stifened springs!

[MC]

How firm is your suspension? The firmer it is, the less you need the ARB, and the more the ARB will promote underteer. Try it for a couple of weeks.

[dan16v]

i much prefere my 16v with out the arb coming into corners i get alot more initial bite which imo i prefere ,with the arb i found the car seems locked and wants to push on into corners which makes me uncomitted entering corners :?

[CP]

Sorted!
Next topic - Camber. How much and why? Lol!

[Slatter]

I put an ARB on my car when i uprated to coilovers.

Since then i have nearly put my car in a few hedges cos of MAJOR understeer.

Its dropped 70mm on 16's and is set to full on stiffness.

As soon as it goes on ramp yet i will definitly be taking it off because i like thrash my car a bit :roll: .
And i prefer oversteer to understeer from learning on the track.

But i agree with CP i think it was. If you dont know and are not confident with control of ure car dont take it off if your car is supposed to have 1.

Mine used to be a 1.2 merit. I suppose it still is :wink: so it didnt come with one anyway.

But be careful if u do take ures off

[mikeoxford]

tricky one this

had a 1.2 merit as my old car

put 15 tigra alloys on it

when i put them on i thought how tight and sharp it was etc, very smooth around bends,

after a whie of nailing it round bends etc and coming off islands id agree there was a lcak of steer and i tended to drift outwards if i werent careful, this was worsened if you had anyone in the car or extra weight such as fuel.

on my second nova (current AND FINAL ONE!!! - me keep it :D) it obviously has them as standard, and so far, i think there all right on there, i think if i upgrade to bigger wheels i may notice it.

this is a tuff one really

any of the track day pros any opinions?

[Dan]

ermmm yeh mike lol, if you read from the start you will see why i did it and also find cp's/mc's reply. i was told to do by similar sources to cp (tarmac rally blokes) but obv from diff parts of country. Our findings were reported in our original posts. But we do run very stiff chassis's as explained and run similar spec shells. Again if you read this thread from beginning you will see why.

[mikeoxford]

:oops: oops

my apologies!

[jon_boy]

so if you made the actual suspension (springs and shocks) a bit softer, but onyl a bit, and then put the ARB back on, would it be better than a slightly harder suspension setup and no ARB?

[MC]

Interesting question. Could be.

All race cars have ARB's. Must be for a reason, but they only drive on smooth tracks. They don't have pot holes and bumps to contend with.

[CP]

I still think the relative ineffectiveness of Nova ARB's is to do with the fact that they aren't attached to the body of the car and the parts of the suspension that they are attached to (the tie bars) is the least useful place to attach them.

I've look at quite a lot of ARB designs and on the better handling cars ( pugs etc) they are strapped to the subframe and often linked directly to the suspension struts ( or very close to) via some kind of connecting rods.

I think if you could fit a similar design to a Nova you might well find that for non -race surfaces you could back off the spring/damper pressure as you suggest and use an ARB more successfully. Otherwise I think it would be too close to call?

[jon_boy]

also you can get adjustable ARB's. im guessing these can be set up so its just perfect. ive seen a cockpit adjustable one so you could adjust it as you go along to find the perfect setting for whatever track (or road) your on. its advertised on novarally, maybe its worth a look if you race

[craig green]

I really like the sound of all this, I'm gonna pull mine off (ARB that is) and try it, Though have you seen the bottom arms and tie bars used on the Grp A cars. MENTAL stuff, and jolly expensive to upgrade to. I remember proby was using coil-overs years ago without an ARB. He's back with it on Billies now. Hmmm? Ive got rose jointed, strengthened bottom arms with a chassis strengthening kit and the increased feedback is immense, My mate that drives a strengthened valver cant get enough of it!

[JamesUK]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

If you could attach the anti-roll bar to the car do you think it would be better?

I don't know if anyone has seen under a late 80's - mid 90's Merc but that has a anti roll bar that conects to the bottom arm and just links each side, just like the Nova. However it has two brackets, one each side, that are bolted to the front crossmember and extend downwards for about four inches then have the traditional ant-roll bar clamp with bush inside.

Would something along those lines make a better improvement with soft suspension?

Also has anyone played around with the position of the anti-roll bar, moving further towards the front or further towards the hubs?

[Mark]

Ok, my turn.

I run Tarmac rally's and the ARB stay's on, yes ON.

Full cage, Inch stitch, poly bushes, and Spax adjustable 35mm drop...

We have no problems under braking, cornering or accelerating but lose out on top speed due to engine size..

So, for know, we will continue to run ARB's and re-consider after the next engine transplant..

[NovaNeil]

OK, so what are the effects with a Quaiffe diff then? CP, have you found its effected the car even more with the Diff or did you not run a ARB before you had the diff?

I took it off once and didn't get on without it to be honest, at high speeds the car didn't feel anywhere near as stable cornering, Intial turn in did produce less understeer, but I was only running an Uprated Suspension kit. So I might try taking it off again now that I've got Coilovers and a diff and see if it makes any difference.

[brian]

some of you might remember this picture from last christmas. its the tca in the wide arch Nova when it broke in the the adjustable section! this tca was bolted straight to the front panel as a normal tca. this was a gp A spec wide track setup fully rosejointed etc in use by many people and no antiroll bar in use!! the front panel was as much of an arb as the tca's got!
http://www.novaload.net/forums/album_see.php?id=211

[Ste_Nova]

gp A spec wide track setup [/img]

no... the grp a stuff isn't wide track and is all pilbeam stuff....

[steve-o]

i was considering taking mine off as whoever fitted it just used an angle grinder to make it fit!!

and it catches on the tyres on full lock.

[brian]

no... the grp a stuff isn't wide track and is all pilbeam stuff....
i am well aware that a gp A Nova back in the day wasn't wide track....
i was taking in terms of Gp A spec/type/strength as regards the wide track kit.

[CP]

Right here you are then the definitive answer for a Nova ( maybe? lol)

Remove your ARB if:

1. You drive mainly smooth surfaces and like going on circuits
2. You like responsive steering and a front end thats grippy
3. You have uprated the spring and damper ratings
4. You dont want understeer and are happy to be able to induce a bit of oversteer - you enjoy the lively feel
5. You are running very good grippy tyres - Yoko's, Toyos etc
6. You like driving and cornering hard and fast.
7. You have put a valver in - you will be getting plenty understeer anyways

Leave it on if:

1. You like stability and no suprises in your steering feedback.
2. You'd prefer to have understeer as its safer
3. You dont like cornering too hard.
4. You drive rough bumpy surfaces
5. You rally
6. You run budget tyres and your suspension is fairly soft

[Ben]

I have drove both a car with and without.

Our 2.0l 16v had the ARB removed and seemed to handle well considering the normal handling of a 16v nova. Its handling was much better than my standard GTE that im driving at the moment.

Dan took me out in his 1600 on Twin 40's the other day with his ARB removed and its handling was far superior to any of the GSi/GTE's i have come across.

Also a note that in my opinion Dans car was a lot quicker on the uptake than a standard 2.0l 16v, i was far more impressed by going in this car than i was in a valver.

[clonebaby]

does somebody have a picture of a ARB? dont understand what it is.. lol

[chimp007_uk]

Hard suspension is very unforgiving. On a smooth surface it is good, but hit bumos and the car takes off. There is no give. The antiroll bar makes things worse. It prevents the rebound of the shock working correctly and amplifies the problems seen on a standard setup. The end result is a car that is very skitish with huge amounts of understeer. Now in theory a car with decent firm suspension shouldn't suffer from body roll, therefore the anti-roll bar is not helping, in fact it is hindering. Remove it and you will have both sides working indipendently, coping with there own bumps, extending as they wish and keeping maximum surface area in contact with the ground. Understeer is reduced and the car feels more responsive.

I would emphasise that removing the anti-roll bar will only show benefit if you have good uprated suspension and you can cope with oversteer. Take it off, and allow timew to get used to it before really pushing hard.


i'm building up a road rally nova, and i have a very firm suspension set-up, cage and front and rear strut braces. i get a terrible amount of understeer in tight corners (and roundabouts) and a small amount of oversteer. will have a look at removing the front arb this week. is the rear arb left in?

cheers guys

[chimp007_uk]

does somebody have a picture of a ARB? dont understand what it is.. lol


look in the haynes manual, you can see pics of it.

[Dan]

YES leave the rear arb in. People please look at the dates of these threads ;) .

[chimp007_uk]

i'm sorry, was just curious.

[Stuart]

to be fair dan, its a valid thread... and always will be lol

[Dan]

lmao agreed, its just horrible reading what i wrote 3 years ago and comparing it to how far we have advanced and what we know now lol lol

[Stuart]

i know nothing :p

[studaman21]

i know this is probably a bit late but im curious now
i have front and rear arb and strut braces
what should i keep and what should i take off

[Stuart]

read the thread and make your own mind up...

[Dan]

Read the whole thread, when we originally started it everyone shared their experiences be it big block or small block options. i think it covers most aspects to 'aid' you towards a decision as at the end of the day its personal preference to suit your own driving style and tastes

[Dan]

same time lol 'SNAP' i win lol

[clonebaby]

look in the haynes manual, you can see pics of it.

Dont have the haynes manual :(

But if somebody have a picture, post it! :tard:

[Bouch]

Another thing that people over look when combatting under steer is that a big difference can be made by altering the rear suspension.
The general rule with under steer is to stiffen the rear and soften the front and vice versa with over steer.
This can be seen while watching rallys for instance. If you watch most RWD cars tramping round a corner, they always seam to lift the inside front wheel. This is because they've been set up to reduce over steer.
Same with FWD cars. If you watch the touring cars at full chat round a bent, they tend to lift the inside rear wheel. Again, they have been set up to reduce under steer.
The idear behind it is to stiffen up the end that appears to have more grip while cornering(rear on a FWD and front on a RWD).
While a car corners the weight of the car is thrown to the outside which increases the downward pressure on the outside tyres and reduces the downward pressure on the inside tyres. The difference in down ward pressures is dependant on the give/travel in the suspension.
If you had an old style pram which had springs on all four wheels and then pushed it as if you were trying to push it on its side, you would notice that the two inside wheels would leave the ground at the same time. Now if you were top stiffen up the rear springs and then push it again, you would notice that firstly it would be harder to push, secondly that the rear wheel would lift before the front(therefore reducing grip while you are cornering) and thirdly, that the pram will now start to lean towards the front(increasing grip to the front end while cornering). This is due to the fact that the roll axis of the pram is no longer down the center(from front to back), but is now between the inside front wheel and the outside rear wheel. So the harder you push, the more pressure will be exerted on the front outside wheels and less pressure on the inside rear.

[draper]

Another thing that people over look when combatting under steer is that a big difference can be made by altering the rear suspension.
The general rule with under steer is to stiffen the rear and soften the front and vice versa with over steer.
This can be seen while watching rallys for instance. If you watch most RWD cars tramping round a corner, they always seam to lift the inside front wheel. This is because they've been set up to reduce over steer.
Same with FWD cars. If you watch the touring cars at full chat round a bent, they tend to lift the inside rear wheel. Again, they have been set up to reduce under steer.
The idear behind it is to stiffen up the end that appears to have more grip while cornering(rear on a FWD and front on a RWD).
While a car corners the weight of the car is thrown to the outside which increases the downward pressure on the outside tyres and reduces the downward pressure on the inside tyres. The difference in down ward pressures is dependant on the give/travel in the suspension.
If you had an old style pram which had springs on all four wheels and then pushed it as if you were trying to push it on its side, you would notice that the two inside wheels would leave the ground at the same time. Now if you were top stiffen up the rear springs and then push it again, you would notice that firstly it would be harder to push, secondly that the rear wheel would lift before the front(therefore reducing grip while you are cornering) and thirdly, that the pram will now start to lean towards the front(increasing grip to the front end while cornering). This is due to the fact that the roll axis of the pram is no longer down the center(from front to back), but is now between the inside front wheel and the outside rear wheel. So the harder you push, the more pressure will be exerted on the front outside wheels and less pressure on the inside rear.

good explantion there :)

to everyone asking 'should i remove my arb?' only you can decide as only you will know whether you prefer driving with it on or off, simply take it off for a month or so and see how you feel with it

[Mike]

My rear one has gone walkies as i left it in the my old shell, and now the rear end feels very dodgy! But that could be due to -750kg weight of the car?

[Dan]

nope that will be down to dodgy suspension lol. I think mine comes in at around 720kg and the rear end is absolutley glued to the road/track unless i decide to give it a caring flick

[Stanley]

im running a near standard 1400SR and found fitting a front ARB helped a great deal (originally a 1200 nova - so no ARB as standard)

1400SR, OMP adjustable strut brace, Bilstein kit off corsa sport (yellow gas strut'd variety - streetline??) (roughly lowered 50mm at front - P.I. -60mm springs rear), 16" speedlines (195/40/16's), amp/sub/ full interior etc so slightly overweight.

i live on a 'B' road and i noticed with no ARB the car would rock side to side when going over a bump on a corner.

fitted ARB and car stayed stiffer and more cotrolable through corners.

turn-in is greatly impoved too (sharper response to steering input)

my personal preference is to keep the ARB on.......

[draper]

another thought, would a pram handle better if you made up an anti-roll bar ? or would it depend on how heavy/where you positioned the brat ?

[Mike]

nope that will be down to dodgy suspension lol. I think mine comes in at around 720kg and the rear end is absolutley glued to the road/track unless i decide to give it a caring flick

Its all brand new James 40mm shocks and springs, but the shocks are hard completly solid!! lol lol

With a new front ARB and bushes, front strut brace and a rear strut brace?

[Dan]

lets not forget, just removing and placing back on is a very basic way, other things to take into account are what you set the tracking of the wheels to and what camber you run them at. once you start to delve into these things other parts become more essential. i personally had certain positions i liked things in when i ran my sprintline kit, which now with a diff and coilovers has totally changed.

When i first finished the car it was sat on avo -60mm springs and my sprintline shocks, it was still fairly solid but it was very obvious how much weight we had took out going by the ride height :tard: which is why i ended up going the coilover route to comprimise between track and road..........

BEFORE

http://www2.novaload.net/files/dan/newcar/before1.jpg

AFTER

http://www2.novaload.net/files/dan/newcar/after1.jpg

Quite shocking i think you will agree, esp as it had been driven on the -60mm setup for over 6 months so it was defo settled

[clonebaby]

''
Dont have the haynes manual :(

But if somebody have a picture, post it! :tard:

Just forget it! anti roll bar, didnt use my brain there for a moment.

I know what a ARB is lol


btw: thought that thicker and stronger anti roll bars, the better it is for traction.. :wtf:


Ps. my english is fishy!